Eley Tennex weight inconsistency

T

Travelor

New member
I run a match on Thursdays for us Old Farts that are retired. We shoot 22RF from the bench and have three classes - Metallic sights; guns with tuners; and, all others. The scores are getting much better as the shooters learn how to shoot better and learn ammo preferences of their guns.

I had been using some older Eley Club EPS and started weighing it with a GemPro scale (sensitive to .02 grains) in an attempt to eliminate the low shots. As always happens the equipment/ammo creep has set in and I bought two bricks of Tennex (lot 1010-04250 1052 fps) to do my part in the creeping.

The Tennex was really grouping pretty poorly so I decided to weigh it. The ammo has two distinct weights, one weight group is exactly .34 grains less that the other group IN THE SAME BOX. Separating the Tennex by the weight groups helped immensely but, WHY THE WEIGHT DIFFERENCE IN THE SAME BOX? This is expensive ammo and I feel this quality problem is unacceptable for the cost of the ammo.

George
 
Been like that since Washington was crossing the Delaware.
Variances that apply : Primarily the weight of the lube on the projectile. Propellant amount or density, same for priming compound, Weight of bullet, Weight of case.
Now you get to stack all the tolerances = variation of assembly.
When you consider the vast quantity of cartridges produced it is amazing that they are even that close. There are other threads along these lines in archives.
 
Pete Roberson said:
If you try the black box EPS I think you'll find it is better weight wise and will shoot better over all.
Higher cost doesn't always mean better ammo, as blades said Red box has always been like that?
Good Luck!
Pete
Click to expand...

Same stuff, same machines, often same run, the only diff-after testing some gets a black box, some gets a red box. Tennex and Match are not made differently.
 
Travelor said:
I run a match on Thursdays for us Old Farts that are retired. We shoot 22RF from the bench and have three classes - Metallic sights; guns with tuners; and, all others. The scores are getting much better as the shooters learn how to shoot better and learn ammo preferences of their guns.

I had been using some older Eley Club EPS and started weighing it with a GemPro scale (sensitive to .02 grains) in an attempt to eliminate the low shots. As always happens the equipment/ammo creep has set in and I bought two bricks of Tennex (lot 1010-04250 1052 fps) to do my part in the creeping.

The Tennex was really grouping pretty poorly so I decided to weigh it. The ammo has two distinct weights, one weight group is exactly .34 grains less that the other group IN THE SAME BOX. Separating the Tennex by the weight groups helped immensely but, WHY THE WEIGHT DIFFERENCE IN THE SAME BOX? This is expensive ammo and I feel this quality problem is unacceptable for the cost of the ammo.

George
Click to expand...

Take the same gun and run some ammo that chronos around 1080 through it and compare to Tenex groups. Lapua and Federal 922A come to mind to try. good luck
 
It is a fallacy to believe that just because one buys Red Box it is going to shoot in whatever you try it in. RF ammo just doesn't work that way. If one happens to find some ammo that shoots accurately in their rifle they need to immediately buy all of that lot number they can afford and or find, regardless of what color the box is, from my experience.

I think some reasons the typical long barreled position rifle shoots faster ammo better are, perhaps a longer chamber and the extra length of the barrel, as compaired to the usual Benchrest rife length. Not claiming to be an expert here but I have found with my 37 Rem and some other rifles I have owned in the past, they distinctly like and liked the faster ammo.
 
Last edited:
Thanks for the replies and the time it takes to type your replies. I read and understand your comments, but I am still puzzled about the ammo weight differences. Of course the exterior lube will cause weight variations and I have always wondered if removing the ammo from the boxes would cause the weights to vary as some lube stays on the box.

Of course there will be variances in weight within a lot and I have been using the GemPro to segregate similar weight cartridges within a box in the hopes of eliminating the score killing rounds that drop out of the X-ring and gave me a 9 or 8. In weighing the older Club EPS the weights vary about .5 grains and are easy to pick the rounds that are lighter than the norm within the box. I found it very interesting that the weight sorted ammo shot better using similar weights than unsorted ammo EVEN THE ROUNDS WITH WEIGHTS WELL ABOVE OR BELOW the majority of the rounds.

But this still has me scratching my head as to why two separate and distinct weight groups within the same box of Tennex. I was able to sort them into the heavy and light groups and have the weights within each group to be only +/- .04 of a grain.

As a FYI, I was not able to weight sort and get consistent results when I was using a scale with an accuracy of +/- .1 grain. It was just not accurate enough to separate the inconsistencies.

George
 
Since there is no sense in weight sorting great shooting ammo, I would guess most of us don't weigh Eley. But we do test lots to find the great shooting lots. Maybe when we test lots we are eliminating those that have greater weight differences. I don't know for sure. I stopped weighing ammo when I stopped shooting Wolf/SK ammo years ago. Man, what a time drain that was. As others have said, buying Tennex is no guarantee of it being better ammo than Match or Team. I never order or test Tennex. I have been able, so far, to find great shooting lots of Match.
 
Last edited:
The mystery here as I understand is not a bell curve weight distribution, but two distinct weights of ammo in the same box. I have no wisdom to offer for that. I did find, after much testing of all sorts of ammo, that Team produced the best groups in my rifle. Thinking more money would produce better results, I bought the next higher priced Eley ammo (I think it is Match) and the groups opened up some.
 
Traveler, that is very interesting and logic says that at least one of the fundemental components (bullets, powder, primer, cases) is coming from at least two sources or physically separate machine (processes). I do not know the process flow of the eley line, we need soemone who does to tell us where the two-source possibility exists.

I would suggest you carefully disassemble ammo from the two nodes and weight each component to try and tell which component(s) cause this. .34 grains is quite a difference so it should be possible to find it with an accurate scale. I am sure someone has done this before.

Now from my personal interest I must ask: Exactly how much better did it shoot after sorting? What were the comparitive group sizes?

Bill
 
I don't know if this has been mentioned, but when I weight any of the components, I make sure I'm in a draft free zone. Drafts, can cause a difference in the final results. Personally I've never benefited by weighing and sorting by rim thickness.
Testing by lot, for each barrel, regardless of brand or grade of ammo.
 
Has anyone tested a good shooting lot then a bad lot to see if there is a difference in weight and rim thickness?
 
Last edited:
George,

While you've stated you've tested you never indicated how much testing and I'd venture that unless that test incorporated more than a few hundered rounds that is part of your varience. I like others have had very good lots in both black and red box and will shoot both/mostly black. I will also, however, say that when fortunate enough to shoot with some great shooters, I pretty much observe guys peeling open fresh boxes.
 
ammo

i think if you go to the ara equipment lists most are shooting ely black box the shooters dont tell it but they use specific runs and lot numbers. they do a lot of searching for the precise ammo that matches up with their rifles. now i dont know if they weigh each one or not.

bob

tim said:
George,

While you've stated you've tested you never indicated how much testing and I'd venture that unless that test incorporated more than a few hundered rounds that is part of your varience. I like others have had very good lots in both black and red box and will shoot both/mostly black. I will also, however, say that when fortunate enough to shoot with some great shooters, I pretty much observe guys peeling open fresh boxes.
Click to expand...
 
Thanks again for the insights. I have not taken the ammo apart YET, but I have test weighed about 4 boxes of this particular lot and keep getting the two separate and distinct weights.

The test groups were done on an indoor range using a know accurate gun, a Suhl smithed by Butch Hongisto, shot with a SEB rest and tuner with a JJ Slide that has been tuned. With weight sorted Tennex the gun will shoot under .2" at 50 yards with either weight. When I just start shooting with no weight sorting the groups open to over .5" at 50 yards in the same gun on the same date at the same range.

I will pull a few rounds apart and see what the results are and report back.

George
 
Last edited:
cwop said:
i think if you go to the ara equipment lists most are shooting ely black box the shooters dont tell it but they use specific runs and lot numbers. they do a lot of searching for the precise ammo that matches up with their rifles. now i dont know if they weigh each one or not.

bob
Click to expand...

So they actually look for certain lots and speeds for their exact rifles?? How come nobody told me this before? They do this for each rifle?
 
yes they do call dan killough and tell him your rifle he will suggest some different machines and lots for you rifle. you shoot them log them then if you are serious you peel off some big ones for a case 2 cases if you want to be very very serious.

crazy huh??

bob
 
OK, I weighed the components of two rounds, one of the heavier group and one of the lower weight group.

The high weight was 51.12 grains

The low weight was 50.70 grains.

The difference was .42 grains between them.

Bullets were within .04 grains of each other.

Powder was exactly the same at 1.02 grains.

Now the difference - the cases were .42 grains different.

??????????????

George
 
Cases, depends on the source and lot # of brass sheet. Tolerances they tend to stack up on you as I said before. Die wear. How hard or soft the brass sheet is within specs, just to add 2 more variables to the list. Here is another, No two production runs of powder are exactly the same, think horse shoes or hand grenades- close counts.
The Mfg. do an amazing job of balancing all these variables in our lowly rimfires. ( there are exceptions depending on your point of view)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top