Define "Crazy"

[Chism G]

4473

The handling and purpose of form 4473 is governed by Federal statue, 18USC923. I never owned a gun shop and i didn't write the Law. I have personally witnessed the closure of some of these businesses for non- compliance with the Law.

Sometimes its best not to put your head in an Alligators mouth.

Scroll down to the section that applies to this discussion.


http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/923.




Glenn

 

[JJ-IA]

ATF agents frequently visit FFL holders.
Do they bring coffee and doughnuts, or are they there to check those records that no one but the dealer ever sees?

 

[mike in co]

again...it does not follow
they check COMPLIANCE with the rules of filing out the form.....
the paper does exsist as a trail...BUT IF AND ONLY IF the firearm is in police possession....then they have a maker and a serial number and they can go from the maker BACKWARDS.......
no firearm, no serial number cannot "trace'.....
unless with a court order you look at every document for a 7 yr period ......not likely.

mike in co

ATF agents frequently visit FFL holders.
Do they bring coffee and doughnuts, or are they there to check those records that no one but the dealer ever sees?

 

[Phil Deese]

A local gun dealer told me the BATF will come by occassionally to see how many "Black Guns" are sold and they only look for some who is buying a lot at a time. The one gun every six months are so seems to be ignored. So Mike knows what he's talking about!! I think he gets checked because he sells a large amounts of AR's. This has only been going on since Osama has been in office. What always seems to amaze me is that the government pulls out this 250 gun bill "Overnight" when something like this happens. I think all of us know it has been written for a long time waiting for the right opportunity to pull it out. The killing of children and the reelection seemed to be the right time. Have you noticed that the only time Osama doesn't bring kids out for a photo opp is when is pushing abortion??

 

[tenring]

Defilne "CraZY"

If you answer "yes" to item#F on ATF form 4473, "Have you ever been adjudicated mentally defective or have you been committed to a Mental institution. You are prohibited from purchasing a firearm from a licensed seller.

If you lie to any of the questions,you can be charged with a felony offense. I've never heard of anybody being charged for lying,but it can happen.
Glenn

Our honorable V.P. recently stated they do not prosecute people who lie on the 4473 answers "because we don't have the time to do that."

 

[Chism G]

Define Crazy

Our honorable V.P. recently stated they do not prosecute people who lie on the 4473 answers "because we don't have the time to do that."

You mean,The the same VP that said, on national Television,"I'm proud to be President of the United States"?.




Glenn

 

[alinwa]

So, I don't have to worry about telling my shrink that I feel like ___ someone, since his files are private?



Perjury and spoliation of evidence may have unpleasant consequences sometimes.

You sir are not only uninformed, you are........ I'll be nice...... on the outside looking in.

When (IF) you actually go into business for yourself, IF you learn what it's like to deal with government face-to-face (I do this every freakin' DAY...) you might begin to understand.

And another thing, NO ONE'S OUT TO GET YOU!!!! Nor me....There can be no "unpleasant consequences" for an open transaction by a law-abiding citizen in good repute (which I'm)

Destroying old paperwork is NOT "perjury and spoliation of evidence" (whatever that is) it is simply the smart, legal thing to do. Once you actually HAVE SOMETHING TO TAKE you find out that people want to take it. I've watched and been involved in dozens of suits that were initiated only because the person sued had something to sue for.

you know what???? I have no idea why I'm explaining business practice to someone who's not only obviously NOT a business owner but a liberal to boot!

I apologize aka for my reply. I should know by now that it makes no sense to you.

my bad, I shoulda' stopped long ago!

al

 

[alinwa]

ATF agents frequently visit FFL holders.
Do they bring coffee and doughnuts, or are they there to check those records that no one but the dealer ever sees?

Basically, yes. Altho I normally supply the coffee. My local ATF agent is a helpful guy. I've had a very rocky road with the ATF in years past, I've been personally involved in several ATF stings, know of several others and even know someone who died over an ATF operation. Back in the 80's the ATF was 'wayyyyy out of hand. I explained my reticence with dealing with the ATF/BATF/BATFE to him early on in the process of getting an FFL this time around and he was/is quite understanding. He's not nearly the gung-ho cowboy I'd grown used to.

I think they're working hard to be professional although they get mixed signals from their bosses, from the media and most of all from the voters.....

voters is an ig'nant bunch

al

 

[Chism G]

Do you really believe those records have been destroyed? The copy the FBI has where you called in for the check.
1) other agencies access those files and make copies, also backups
2) ALL agencies backup their files (computers) on a regular bases
3) If the store goes out of business it is required to send ALL current 4473's in to the FBI

JimP

Your observations are similar to a posting by an FFL holder on another site. There are many stories out there about experiences with the ATF.


The bat F boys never destroy anything. And when you close up the business and send the bound books to the going out of business section, make sure you do two things.
One, keep a copy for yourself.
Two, send the ones to the atf via registered mail, return receipt required, adult signature required. Keep the receipts till you die. Plus 100 years. Same for the books and the copies of the 4473.

And if you are really smart, you will contact the post office that delivers it, find out who the carrier was, and get a notarized letter (pay for the notary of course!) from him or her stating that it was delivered, date and time, and if possible, a description of the individual who signed for it. I used a bright orange box for all my books so it was sure to stand out in the minds of the postal workers who handled it on delivery.


Turned in all mine after 40 + years. Did the all the above. 18 months later, got nasty letter saying I had not done so, was going to jail forever, etc.
Signed, coincidentally, by the agent who had signed for my books 18 months earlier.
Called said agent, call him XYZ, told him what I had done, got his fax number, faxed him a copy of the receipt with his signature and a copy of the notarized letter describing him. Lucky for me the post master at the station and the carrier were both life NRA members I guess.
Anyway, he gets back on the phone, tells me I am good to go, and that I will receive a letter from the atf and him confirming this within 14 business days.

It showed up 5 days later. Put it in the safe deposit box with the original receipts.

Flash forward 18 more months. I get another letter from atf, signed by a different agent, call him ABC, telling me that now I am 3 years late and they are going to send me directly to hell for my failure to comply with the law.
Get on the phone, call this agent, ask him if he knows agent XYZ. Says yes, that's his immediate supervisor. Can you conference him in? Sure.
XYZ remembers me, can't understand why I have gotten the second letter. Just to be sure agent ABC (the new kid) understands, I fax him the copies of the receipts, the notarized letter, and the letter from the atf signed by XYZ.

Ask them to please make sure this is taken care of, I'd sure hate to bring suit against the atf, the two of them, and anyone else I can think of for harassment. Said it jokingly, both of them said in return "We'll testify on your behalf, this is ridiculous!"

Been 2 years since that last letter, no further problems. We'll see! Time will tell.



As for them keeping the records, they do. For ever!
Got a call not six months ago asking for help on a forward trace on a pistol I sold my Dad back in 1979. He sold it about 2 years later to a buddy. Pop is dead, but I knew the buddy is still kicking. Called him, fortunately he remembered who he sold it too. Called that guy, etc. Finally lost the trail around 1999, when it was stolen from the last owner. All that was in CA. Was used in a crime in Rhode Island early this year. They knew I was the dealer who sold it last. It wasn't new when I got it or sold it to Pop. So that means they had to trace it from the manufacturer through who knows how many owners until it got to me. It was about 30 years old when I got it in a trade in and logged it into (and out of) my books.
Which means either they keep all the books, or digitize them, No other way to account for it.

And the above isn't the first time they have contacted me for a forward trace. Happened a number of times while I was still in business, and several times since I retired.

So it pays to keep the books meticulously. Triple check all serial numbers, make and model and caliber info on everything you take in and sell. Check all the buyers and sellers info. Print it all in ink and print it so neatly that it looks like it was done with a typewriter. AND KEEP A COPY!
__________________
Steve


Just because you are paranoid doesn't mean someone ISN'T OUT TO GET YOU!
Just because a complaint was never filed doesn't mean a defective parachute was never made.
I've been to three world's fairs, two rodeos and a goat roping contest, but I've never seen the likes of the stuff that goes on around here before!

 

[Guy Pike]

form 4473

I find it interesting that the last statement on page six of the Form 4473 states,"Confidentiality is not assured." How many buyers ever see page six?

 

[alinwa]

I agree completely with the story by Steve supplied by Chism G about closing out a shop.......... Once the atf/batf/batfe HAS YOUR RECORDS, in other words, IF YOU CLOSE SHOP and send them your records then you'd be best to have multiple copies in triplicate. The trick is to never let them have them. The trick with goobermint, ALL goobermint is to never give them more information than is necessary and, if you do give them access, keep meticulous records of every transaction, change, letter or correspondence of any sort. Forever.

This is true for working with enforcement in just about any instance, don't volunteer unnecessary information. It'll not only cloud the issue, it'll come back to haunt you.

I work with government inspectors every day on the jobsite. My crew is trained to never volunteer info. The correct answer is always "no, I'll have to check with my boss." Same is true of a routine traffic stop. Just say no...... And once something "goes on record" for whatever reason, DO NOT lose track of it! NEVER trust the government to keep it straight.

And nowadays, take pictures. Take pictures of documents, take pictures of forms, tickets, situations and of the enforcement official. I have a mini video camera on my keychain and have videotaped "TSA officials" twice now. They back right off once they know they're being recorded. (They also back down quickly when you raise your hands in the air, say "YES SIR!"" "WHATEVER YOU SAY SIR!" loudly and start taking your clothes off, but that's a story for another time.....) Of course this also applies to business transactions. Keep a log with pictures if necessary. I once sent a defective tritium sight back to a well known sight manufacturer with a letter explaining it had faded until it quit shining in the dark. They told me I'd "installed it using a hammer and broken the sight vial." I had in fact built a special tool and pressed it in....I politely requested they return it. They did, AFTER smashing it with a punch.

I hadn't taken pictures, I hadn't expected they'd smash it.

I got the sight replaced but only after going over the guys head and threatening further action if they didn't come clean. I still have the smashed sight complete with half moon dings and dents from a center punch, backside polished from being smashed on an anvil. I told them that I'd "have the sight analyzed" if they didn't square up because you couldn't physically make those dings without backing the sight on an anvil! And that I was perfectly willing to meet them in court with a brand new sight, a pistol slide and the tools....... that if they could duplicate the marks by using a punch to drive the sight into a slide I'd drop charges. Meantime, "here is my going rate per hour, it's your call." They sent me a new sight.

Still, it made me sick to my stomach.

I have learned to keep a "diary," I call it my daily log and pretty much make notations every day.

Again, it ain't because anyone's "out to get you" IMO, it's just that NOBODY wants to fess up. Nobody wants to be responsible for their actions. Most people want to pass the buck.

al-thebuckstopshere-inwa

 

[alinwa]

Looks like I WAS WRONG ABOUT THE 7 YRS

The law has been changed, it's now 20yrs.

SUBCHAPTER B: FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION

PART 478: COMMERCE IN FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION

Subpart H: Records

478.129 - Record retention.

(a) Records prior to Act. Licensed importers and licensed manufacturers may dispose of records of sale or other disposition of firearms prior to December 16, 1968. Licensed dealers and licensed collectors may dispose of all records of firearms transactions that occurred prior to December 16, 1968.

(b) Firearms transaction record. Licensees shall retain each Form 4473 and Form 4473(LV) for a period of not less than 20 years after the date of sale or disposition. Where a licensee has initiated a NICS check for a proposed firearms transaction, but the sale, delivery, or transfer of the firearm is not made, the licensee shall record any transaction number on the Form 4473, and retain the Form 4473 for a period of not less than 5 years after the date of the NICS inquiry. Forms 4473 shall be retained in the licensee's records as provided in ? 478.124(b): Provided, That Forms 4473 with respect to which a sale, delivery or transfer did not take place shall be separately retained in alphabetical (by name of transferee) or chronological (by date of transferee's certification) order.

But this doesn't change the fact that this is DEALER records, it's not submitted to any agency. NICS checks DO NOT take info concerning individual guns.

 

[Chism G]

On the Subject of records

I totally agree with Phil Pickerill and Steve concerning administrative/criminal record keeping. Unless you work for the ATF, its highly unlikely that you would know what records they do or do not keep or why.

Based on experience, I strongly recommend not putting your head in an Alligators Mouth. Its too simple for most people to just follow the Law.



Glenn

 

[mike in co]

it amazing what a simple match will do to 20yrs worth of records...
they can ask all they want..if they do not exisit......

keeping records and following thier rules MAKES YOU THIER SLAVE FOREVER...

screw them

mike in co

 

[HFV]

"hfv"

i am a radiologist not a psychiatrist but i can read the medical literature and have dealt with truly crazy people probably more then most. As my wife says:"it takes one to know one." here are some cold hard facts. For the vast majority of mentally ill people we don't know what causes their illness and the treatment of mental illness is primitive mainly suppressing the symptoms but not curing the disease. There is no treatment breakthrough for mental illness on the horizon. The vast majority of the mentally ill are not violent but there is an increased incidence of violence among the mentally ill. Some of the mentally ill resist treatment and forced treatment and/or involuntary commitment is extraordinarily difficult because of laws and regulations protecting their rights. There is not enough money to treat these people hence they are released into the general population often with no treatment or followup. There is a popular perception among the public that mental hospitals are a hotbed of evil health care workers who perform unethical experiments, sexually abuse, illegally incarcerate, beat, electroshock, bully and lobotomize often normal, sane victims. This stereotype is fed by hollywood movies ( one flew over the cuckoo's nest, kill bill, etc.) and actual past abuses. These abuses still do occur in foreign countries with totalitarian regimes. I have never seen this occur but their is the rare occurrence reported in the news almost always by an aide. This results in public resistance to mental health treatment. The truly crazy are relatively easy to recognize the psychotics such as catatonic schizophrenics. A more difficult problem is the evil person; one who lacks compassion for his fellow man, one who lacks a conscience, who has violent anger issues, who tortures and bullies. You probably have met these people. The prisons are full of them. They are only deterred by self preservation instincts from murder. Combine a mental illness or that doesn't possess this instinct with evil and you get mass murder followed by suicide. Then there is the problem of spotting the not quit crazy/evil that could be tipped into insanity by outside influences; bullied by others, addicted to violent video games, gangsta social culture, a lack of religious morality, (i am not religious but i feel it never hurts to have hellfire preventing you from doing wrong.) etc. I have read articles that seriously suggested (by a non medical liberal) that anyone who is or has been on prozac like drugs should be banned for life from possessing a firearm. These are among the widest prescribed drugs in the usa. So where does that leave us, probably not in a good place. We can nibble at the problem by better reporting of serious mental illness to a central data base but beyond that i don't have an answer. This will be left to solve by our "enlightened, progressive" leaders. God help us. Tim

 

[xs hedspace]

One of my co-workers got a notice from the feds, asking if he still had 4 Daisy (.22!) rifles he bought from a dealer. He was collecting the different models of Daisy .22 rifles. The dealer went out of business, and they thought he was a bulk buyer, and reselling.
Back on the track of this thread, the definition of crazy is doing the same thing over and over, and expecting different results. So Mayor Bloomberg, Gov. Cuomo, and Obama must be crazy, and should be rejected by the NICS check, right??? Don't forget the 1922 NY Sullivan Law, 91 years young, and still stopping criminals from getting pistols.....WHAT?

 

[JJ-IA]

Mike & Phil,
That is good news and sorry about the slow reply, a day of silence seemed in order yesterday.

 

[JJ-IA]

Basically, yes. Altho I normally supply the coffee. My local ATF agent is a helpful guy. I've had a very rocky road with the ATF in years past, I've been personally involved in several ATF stings, know of several others and even know someone who died over an ATF operation. Back in the 80's the ATF was 'wayyyyy out of hand. I explained my reticence with dealing with the ATF/BATF/BATFE to him early on in the process of getting an FFL this time around and he was/is quite understanding. He's not nearly the gung-ho cowboy I'd grown used to.

I think they're working hard to be professional although they get mixed signals from their bosses, from the media and most of all from the voters.....

voters is an ig'nant bunch

al

I’ve only met one BATF agent in my life, at least that I know about. It was in the late 70s’ in a gun store and he was a very cool person.
I’ve probably become a little paranoid since then because over the years I’ve started wondering if the laws of the land, or the presumed desire of the person in the white house are being acted on.

 

[Tim Oltersdorf]

One of the developments in the study of mental illness that has been of the relatively recent inclusion of and study of sociopaths and psychopaths. These are groups of individuals with a common trait of a lack of empathy towards other people. We used to call them mean people or other names. This group can be, and often are ,highly functioning individuals in positions of power such as CEO's, drug lords, some politicians, dictators, professionals like lawyers, doctors etc. In fact it has been stated that these groups have a higher number of such individuals in their groups. Of course the vast majority are not psychopaths or sociopaths but those who are do a disproportionate degree of harm because of their position of power over others. The best you can do is recognize their behavioral characteristics then run away or avoid them if possible.

 

[Al Nyhus]

Dr. Tim, true sociopaths are are quite the piece of work, aren't they? Close behind are the passive aggressive types...but they're easier to manage.
Prior to things getting too PC, a few of us made up a chart about the personality traits of each medical specialty. It was done along the lines of the "How do you hide a 100$ bill from a (insert specialty)?"