Define "Crazy"

Tim Oltersdorf

Active member
I am a radiologist not a psychiatrist but I can read the medical literature and have dealt with truly crazy people probably more then most. As my wife says:"It takes one to know one." Here are some cold hard facts. For the vast majority of mentally ill people we don't know what causes their illness and the treatment of mental illness is primitive mainly suppressing the symptoms but not curing the disease. There is no treatment breakthrough for mental illness on the horizon. The vast majority of the mentally ill are not violent but there is an increased incidence of violence among the mentally ill. Some of the mentally ill resist treatment and forced treatment and/or involuntary commitment is extraordinarily difficult because of laws and regulations protecting their rights. There is not enough money to treat these people hence they are released into the general population often with no treatment or followup. There is a popular perception among the public that mental hospitals are a hotbed of evil health care workers who perform unethical experiments, sexually abuse, illegally incarcerate, beat, electroshock, bully and lobotomize often normal, sane victims. This stereotype is fed by Hollywood movies ( One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, Kill Bill, etc.) and actual past abuses. These abuses still do occur in foreign countries with totalitarian regimes. I have never seen this occur but there is the rare occurrence reported in the news almost always by an aide. This results in public resistance to mental health treatment. The truly crazy are relatively easy to recognize the psychotics such as catatonic schizophrenics. A more difficult problem is the evil person; one who lacks compassion for his fellow man, one who lacks a conscience, who has violent anger issues, who tortures and bullies. You probably have met these people. The prisons are full of them. They are only deterred by self preservation instincts from murder. Combine a mental illness or that doesn't possess this instinct with evil and you get mass murder followed by suicide. Then there is the problem of spotting the not quit crazy/evil that could be tipped into insanity by outside influences; bullied by others, addicted to violent video games, gangsta social culture, a lack of religious morality, (I am not religious but I feel it never hurts to have hellfire preventing you from doing wrong.) etc. I have read articles that seriously suggested (by a non medical liberal) that anyone who is or has been on Prozac like drugs should be banned for life from possessing a firearm. These are among the widest prescribed drugs in the USA. So where does that leave us, probably not in a good place. We can nibble at the problem by better reporting of serious mental illness to a central data base but beyond that I don't have an answer. This will be left to solve by our "enlightened, progressive" leaders. God help us. Tim
 
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There is a popular perception among the public that mental hospitals are a hotbed of evil health care workers who perform unethical experiments, sexually abuse, illegally incarcerate, beat, electroshock, bully and lobotomize often normal, sane victims. This stereotype is fed by Hollywood movies ( One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, Kill Bill, etc.) and actual past abuses. These abuses still do occur in foreign countries with totalitarian regimes. I have never seen this occur but their is the rare occurrence reported in the news almost always by an aide. This results in public resistance to mental health treatment.

Do you mean like this story two days ago in my local news? http://www.wbng.com/news/local/State-Police-Woman-Sexually-Abused-187012451.html

I think there were one or two arrests like this last year in my area too.
 
Been meaning to bring this up...

I need a little help with my response to the inevitable question when I say something like "crazy folk can't have guns". The question then becomes (to hardliners like myself) - How is that not gun control? .... or....OK, while we're making a list of who can't have guns, who else goes on there?

My point is that we all have a bit of gun control in our thoughts and the Bill of Rights simply doesn't cover these things.

At what age does the 2nd amendment apply to individuals? Why can't crazy folk have guns?
 
Tim,

Very well written.

I have pondered for a couple of decades they very instances that you have mentioned. But the problem to the solution is always: Who do you trust to make that determination....the goverment?

A little History:

During the years I lived in Europe, I noticed something. There didn't seem to be as many mentally ill or retarded people in Europe. Finally, I broke down and asked the million dollar question "WHY". Since we are mostly decendants from Europe, why is there a higher percentage in the U.S. than Europe. The answer was quite simple, sterilization. Even before Hilter came into power, european nations would have their doctors (most of the time secretly) sterilize babies, children and adults that showed certain types of behaviors. Hitler took it even further when he came into power. The soft side was hospitals where these people were kept, sterilizied and allowed to live their life out. The darker side was the certain hospitals that kept the insane in inhumane conditions if they showed a tendancy to violence. These were also the hospitals that conducted experiments (sometimes very cruel) on patients to try and understand the cause and effect of everything from medical procedures (operations and medications) to outside stimulations.


Present Day United States:

When it comes to mental health, there is a very large contengency of people who have screwed theirselves when it comes to owning guns in the future. This contengency is veterans drawing benefits for PTSD. Does PTSD exist, absolutely, but with any free goverment money, it gets exploited. I would estimate that close to 70-75 percent of veterans currently drawing PTSD money do not have a real problem. Most of the last three years of my twenty four in the army was spent in hospitals. The number of young soldiers (mostly E-3 & E-4's) that signed up for PTSD payments did so for the 125.00 dollars a month they were going to get. I warned these guys that they were opening up something they couldn't close and there were many ways this could haunt them (right to own guns, ability to get clearances and jobs, etc). Well, just a couple of months ago, the VA was ordered to turn over a complete list of names of those people with PTSD and a list of veterans that have seeked behavorial health assistance. I was also told by several doctors over the last few years that the goverment had been inquiring about people receiving certain medications and it was to be put in their medical files whether the medication was for mental or physical conditions. Guess Why??? Want to also guess why liberals have been pushing (for your own good) a consolidated data bank of medical records that could/can be accessed by all doctors (and the goverment) so if your away from you normal medical care and something happens, they can assit YOU better. I've have two doctors that are taking care of my children tell me the writing was on the wall and to make sure that nothing about stress, anxiety, etc makes it into permentant records, especially if medication is used.

My friends, we are just starting to see the tip of the iceberg. The reason for implimenting is here. We all agree that the mentally ill shouldn't have a gun but are we ready with who and how that decision will be made.

Hovis
 
Your last three words said it all, Tim. We have demonstrated beyond question the foolishness of trying to govern without His help.

God help us ...
 
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"Crazy"

Tim...I feel you Bud. The unrecognizable ,the ones without official files. I call em functional "Nuts". They live work and play with the rest of us normal folks.;) Heck,at some time or other,one might have shown up at a Benchrest Match disguised as a legitimate competitor.;) You just never know. At one point in recent history, The US Postal Service had it's share of troubled "sleepers". That problem seems to have been fixed,for now, with timely pay raises and promotions and employee assistant programs. There is no way for Law makers to legislate away the ugly face of Mental illness. Too many cases don't get diagnosed until after the incident. I have my gun in hands reach most of the time. Its my only defense against Mental illness.



Glenn
 
Community Based Treatment

"Empty the hospitas" has been the politician's mental health mantra since the Reagan era. They claim it will keep them closer to their friends and families, but they often just end up on the street. I saw them in droves when I worked in Atlanta. It's pretty sad when you see someone talking nonsense to the air and you know they have no home to go to. In Vermont, we have a governor who pushed that concept by demonizing the state hospital building. He not only decentralized treatment, he greatly reduced the number of beds. Now my friend the orderly has to care for his charges in emergency rooms and prisons where before, they had all the necessary professional services close at hand. The patients have all the disadvantages and none of the advantages, while the governor crows like he did a good thing.
 
Tim, your points are well taken, however one thing is missing. I have read several informative pieces over the last month, most of them from profilers, criminologists, a few mental health professionals, and they tend to agree that most often our current breed of folks that brutalize innocents in "safe zones" tend to vocalize, act out, practice, and generally give lots of hints that quite often, in our HR society disallow a lot of possible intervention because "they have rights" , and they have "not really done anything" YET. Perhaps, for the general good, they should be taken at their word.
 
I hear you guys in your attempts to state what is crazy. Problem being that guns are going to be denied to people defined as "crazy" by political definitions and with the extreme anitgunners being in power as they are now, I suspect that the definition sweep will encompass a lot more people than you may suspect. Start with the PTSD vets, then go to anyone who has ever gone on record as having drunk too much at some time in their life, then to anyone who has ever has a prescription for tranks or antidepressants, then to anyone---, etc, etc, in a world in which every comment, everything is digitally stored, until everyone is "crazy". Gun control problem solved.
 
In the 70's when I went through school I knew three teachers who packed guns. One of them used to let kids shoot his 1911 on field trips. Half the rigs in the parking lot had guns in them and we had no problem wearing our hunting knives all day while keeping our deer rifle or shotgun in our locker IN THE SCHOOL so they didn't get ripped off from the window racks.

"School shootings???"

Mass Shooting?

I don' tsink tso vato.....jou would DIE quick!

I fired a muzzleloader out the window of the classroom for a 'demonstration speech.'

I got an 'A.'

The only "school shooting" I know of was a girl who committed suicide in school using a pistol but her statement wasn't some emo bs..... she was beautiful. And popular. She got hit by a drunk driver and paralyzed from from the guts down. She got out when she was turning 16. Made me cry.

And she didn't take anyone with her.

al
 
Crazy

Glen, you hit it on the head. "I have my gun in hand's reach. It is my defense against mental illness". You also mentioned the functional crazies, those without any prior record. We cannot reasonably predict a functional crazy. Tim also made an excellent point that most of these mass murders have a past history of adherent behavior. So how about we prevent those with a known history of crazy behavior from getting guns and arm ourselves against those who slip through the cracks. Thank all of you for this logical and helpful dialog on this issue. This is so refreshing compared to the hissing diatribe i see on MSNBC. Tim
 
<snip> It's pretty sad when you see someone talking nonsense to the air <snip/>

With most new cars having talk-in-the-air Bluetooth hands free phone links, and my car having voice controlled almost everything. It’s no wonder people like my parents (83 & 89) think anyone that buys a new car must be “crazy”! :D

A few months ago a lady was coming down the road in a new car with her arms flailing in the air having a heated conversation,, with no one else in the car. She notice my grin and the type of car I was driving and busted out laughing.

P.S.
They also make very small Bluetooth phone earphones so when people get out of their high-tech cars they can look crazy almost everywhere. lol
 
On a more serious note.
Have all the mass murdering animals over the years been thin people, or is it just the majority??
 
The truly crazy are relatively easy to recognize. they are the same people that want to Take our guns away. They are the ones that think that if you disarm this country, all violence will disappear. And to show you what Kind of hypocrites they really are. Ask one of those anti gun idiots if you can put a sigh in front of there house that says ,THIS IS A GUN FREE HOME and see what there reaction is :eek:
 
To add to Hovis's observations, I as a MRI Technologist have been noticing a trend on patients coming from the ER.
Patients who have come in for treatment for chronic and acute back pain, head ache, cervical pain, leg pain, 1 knee pain. Have been given admitting diagnosis of psych disorders.
We even had one patient who was was so ill and and was flown in from Houston as they were to neurologically unstable and a past transplant recipent. I did a emergent ER MRI. Admitting diagnosis was psych disorder. Patient went immediately to the ICU for a couple of months. come to find out they had west Nile virus, they were still, after 2 months, incapacitated and on a vent. I did a discharge MRI before going to the long term care facility and still the diagnosis is psychiatric disorder unspecified.
Bottom line is once that is on you record you cant get it off.
Or question for Tim how do you get it off your record? How would you keep something like low back pain being branded as a psych disorder then being defined as crazy?
jd
 
OK, I'm just peeping in around the edges. Are you guys intimating that psychosomatic pain is being diagnosed as a psychiatric disorder? And that if something IS diagnosed as psychosomatic, later found to be physical, the (incorrect) psychosomatic diagnosis still stands?
 
Even psychiatrists do not agree on "Crazy"
They have an incredible tolerance the rest of us don't have for what is in the two standard deviations of normal.
 
Here are some cold hard facts. For the vast majority of mentally ill people we don't know what causes their illness and the treatment of mental illness is primitive mainly suppressing the symptoms but not curing the disease.

Tim, I have a fair amount of experience studying mental illness and dealing with people being medicated with mind altering drugs and would say you are pretty spot on in your observations. I would like to add the fact that medical doctors routinely prescribe antidepressants and anti-anxiety medications without proper training in the field of psychology, often adding to the patient’s long term problems. Stress and anxiety are a natural function of the brain necessary for the survival of a species. It tells you that you have a problem and need to fix it. You need to come to terms with it, find solutions to deal with it, and move on.

I realize this is not easy for many and this is not meant to address severe mental illness. But people need access to trained mental health professionals. Specifically psychologists. Not some nurse practitioner with the ability to toss some meds at someone that avoids or just does not know how to deal with their problems. And this treatment has to be widely accepted as being for sane people. There is a common taboo with people that only crazy people see shrinks. Not true! Crazy people go to the doctor to get a fix to their problems with a pill.

Many people are unaware that these SSRI drugs such as Prozac can cause permanent changes in how the brain produces serotonin, thus causing a lifelong dependency just to achieve normalcy. And without it, great despair. And with great despair comes some pretty irrational thinking.

I could go on and on for days but I think I made my point. Good topic.
 
I had a person very close to me shoot herself with a glock. At the time she was taking antidepressants. I m no doctor but i wonder if the cure is as bad as the disease. If she was crazy, I know alot of crazy people. She owned alot of guns.
 
Doug,

Sorry for your loss. Meds are not meant to be a cure. Though most people on them view it as such. They should be used responsibly to treat the symptoms while the underlying problems are addressed. If they can be.

I have someone close that attempted suicide a few times after only seeing a nurse practitioner to address anxiety and depression. The practitioner basically experimented with a variety of meds over a number of years. Essentially throwing prescription darts at the symptoms with no understanding of the problem. After institutionalizing and receiving real psychological treatment, it was determined the meds aggravated the situation and distorted thinking patterns had been so deeply ingrained that it prevented the effective use of psychotherapy.
 
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