7
737SHARK
Guest
Proof is how it shoots...
Pics would be nice.
David
Pics would be nice.
David
W
wnroscoe
Guest
It was said there was .030" run out in the threads. Obviously, the receiver threads will dictate things along with the receiver face and barrel shoulder, if one is not square with the other it will perform poorly. Like I said, "The way I understand it", I'm very much the student, not the teacher. If the tenon and threads aren’t square with the receiver face and barrel shoulder, it will not work. Every thing has to be true & square with the center line of the bolt, receiver, chamber, bore, and crown. How you get there is academic, as long as you get there.
Thanks
William
J
Jkob
Guest
I will repeat my original question: Hw does the Manson tooling correct a receiver when the runout exceeds the .010" oversize tap. Like I said, the ones I saw that were running out, sometimes exceeded .030"!!!!
D
Dennis Sorensen
Guest
W
wnroscoe
Guest
Used the Kiff tool again today. The rear of the receiver took a .703" bushing and the front took a .7015" bushing. Looked to be 100% clean up on the threads. Receiver face to the receiver lug recess was 1.135", both sides, after 100% clean up. The receiver face had two high spots on it, one at 12 o-clock, and one at 7 o-clock. While metal was being removed from the receiver face you could see the slight peaks and valleys on it. All's good now and ready to go.
J
Jkob
Guest
One method I use is with a 1 1/6-16 tap that is inserted in the receiver after I have it set up to true. I set it up with the bolt raceway running true. I also check it with a machined, snug, fitting threaded stub in the headstock and screw the "virgin" action on and measure the runout at the far end. This does not give a true reading at the threads however but is a good way to check runout after trueing.
Sound valid?
D
Dennis Sorensen
Guest
I do a similar check... I thread a stub and then screw the action on and insert a mandrel... the longer the mandrel the more run out observed...
I think this method shows more where the threads are pointed than how much the thread axis is off from the race way...
D
Dennis Sorensen
Guest
Yes it appears to act as a single point cutting tool as it does not follow the existing thread...
... afterward this procedure, when a barrel is installed, the newly cut thread allows the barrel to center as it is no longer holding the barrel thread to one side...
... afterward this procedure, when a barrel is installed, the newly cut thread allows the barrel to center as it is no longer holding the barrel thread to one side...
Question for Mickey
I assume, and that is "dangerous", the Remington 700 action is heat treated after threading and the TIR did not exist when it was originally machined and the TIR was caused by warpage. I know when Mausers were heat treated there was a threaded mandrel inserted into the action prior to heat treating. it was put in the action to reduce warpage. I have found Remington 700s to only be surface hardened. If you completely remove the threads and cut new threads the remaining metal is much softer. This indicates to me only surface hardening. My second question would be how does the Manson tool do when it comes to a hard place in the metal. Does it skate or cut the hard spot.
Rustystud
I assume, and that is "dangerous", the Remington 700 action is heat treated after threading and the TIR did not exist when it was originally machined and the TIR was caused by warpage. I know when Mausers were heat treated there was a threaded mandrel inserted into the action prior to heat treating. it was put in the action to reduce warpage. I have found Remington 700s to only be surface hardened. If you completely remove the threads and cut new threads the remaining metal is much softer. This indicates to me only surface hardening. My second question would be how does the Manson tool do when it comes to a hard place in the metal. Does it skate or cut the hard spot.
Rustystud
Dave Tooley
Active member
food for thought or fuel for the fire
I've always found these debates at the very least, entertaining. So I thought a little experiment was in order.
I went down after lunch and turned a stub 1 1/16 TPI. I had two long 700 actions I had trued up with Manson's tooling. Done at different times with different taps. For serial numbers, one had a G prefix and the other very old with no letter prefix. The first set of numbers are with an interference fit on the threads. They were screwed on with a 12" action wrench just short of the shoulder. The thread fit was tight enough that it generated some heat when they were installed and removed.
Checking runout at the very rear of the receiver ring, 6" from the shoulder, the runout for the new action was .0150"TIR, old action .0125"TIR
Next I cut the threads (same setup) to my normal fit, relieved the threads at the shoulder so I wouldn't have to use a recoil lug and checked again. New action .0015"TIR, old action .0065"TIR
Next I made another cut on the threads so a custom 700 clone would fit. I checked two of these actions screwed up tight against the shoulder. Both had the same runout, .0105" TIR
I'm not sure this proves or disproves anything concerning the threads with just two actions but I think it may prove a perfect shoulder is probably more important than perfect threads.
Dave
I've always found these debates at the very least, entertaining. So I thought a little experiment was in order.
I went down after lunch and turned a stub 1 1/16 TPI. I had two long 700 actions I had trued up with Manson's tooling. Done at different times with different taps. For serial numbers, one had a G prefix and the other very old with no letter prefix. The first set of numbers are with an interference fit on the threads. They were screwed on with a 12" action wrench just short of the shoulder. The thread fit was tight enough that it generated some heat when they were installed and removed.
Checking runout at the very rear of the receiver ring, 6" from the shoulder, the runout for the new action was .0150"TIR, old action .0125"TIR
Next I cut the threads (same setup) to my normal fit, relieved the threads at the shoulder so I wouldn't have to use a recoil lug and checked again. New action .0015"TIR, old action .0065"TIR
Next I made another cut on the threads so a custom 700 clone would fit. I checked two of these actions screwed up tight against the shoulder. Both had the same runout, .0105" TIR
I'm not sure this proves or disproves anything concerning the threads with just two actions but I think it may prove a perfect shoulder is probably more important than perfect threads.
Dave
P
PPP MMM
Guest
What one can see, is that the tap is too small to do the job right
If one was to use a single point tool he/she wouldn't leave the finished thread looking like this.
Shoot well
Peter
..................
The pictures show one side of the threads and then the opposite side. You can see where the threads were hardly touched in one place which would indicate that spot was farther away from the centerline than the opposite side. Right?
If one was to use a single point tool he/she wouldn't leave the finished thread looking like this.
Shoot well
Peter
Last edited by a moderator:
MColeman
Club Coordinator
Nat, as to the heat treating of the Remington I can't answer simply because I don't know. I never had the Manson tap to not cut and this receiver is the first one I've ever seen that had a spot such as this. The tap did touch the darker spot so I know that the threads were straight.
I have found that the Manson tap gets dull fairly fast. With this one I used Dave Kiff's tap which is coated with something that makes it stay sharp longer. It cut easier than Manson's tap ever did. Kiff's tap will cut a titanium action where the Manson tap won't without a lot of effort.
Gentlemen,
I was just reading this, especially the part about the gunsmith who takes out ALL the threads on a 700 and starts anew, and was wondering if somebody has tried retrofitting a 700 with a threaded insert ala the Stolle actions. I'm not sure there would be any real reason to this, but has anyone tried?
Thanks,
Justin
PS I have Kiff's action trueing kit...works like a charm. And I agree with Mickey. I don't think anybody could realize on a target, the difference between a single point trued 700, or a tap mandrel trued 700, if both are properly done.
I was just reading this, especially the part about the gunsmith who takes out ALL the threads on a 700 and starts anew, and was wondering if somebody has tried retrofitting a 700 with a threaded insert ala the Stolle actions. I'm not sure there would be any real reason to this, but has anyone tried?
Thanks,
Justin
PS I have Kiff's action trueing kit...works like a charm. And I agree with Mickey. I don't think anybody could realize on a target, the difference between a single point trued 700, or a tap mandrel trued 700, if both are properly done.
D
Dennis Sorensen
Guest
Not really - it seems just to be a difference of opinion...
P
PPP MMM
Guest
As matter of opinion, Who would like to have a thread looking like this
On his/hers benchrest rifle?
We know that Dennis is one and who else is willing to put a hand up?
Shoot well
Peter
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
The pictures show one side of the threads and then the opposite side. You can see where the threads were hardly touched in one place which would indicate that spot was farther away from the centerline than the opposite side. Right?
On his/hers benchrest rifle?
We know that Dennis is one and who else is willing to put a hand up?
Shoot well
Peter
P
PPP MMM
Guest
Bill Leeper
New member
I set my receivers up in the lathe and recut the threads. I think the Manson or Kiff type system could work quite well but I think it could be influenced by the skill of the operator. No problem with that, in my view. Since I do as many M70's as I do Remingtons, I'll probably just keep doing it the way I do.
I have never seen a Remington action with the threads offset by .030 and I've checked a lot of them. I suspect Jim's tap may be being deflected by the end of the thread but I could be wrong. I have seen a Remington where the threads were obviously distorted by the stamping of the serial number. The threads were shiny at the location of the letter prefix.
I don't think there would be any real problem with removing the threads entirely and rethreading. One could make the thread 1 1/8x16 tpi. 1 1/8 diameter is judged to be ok when it's used in a Savage receiver so it should be equally alright in a Remington. I frequently rethread Winchester M70 actions to 1 1/16x16 on the theory that if that size works out in a Remington, it will be fine in the Winchester. As a bonus, the winchester will have a complete thread instead of an interupted one.
I've never seen any evidence that the 700 is surface hardened. 4140 is generally hardened right through. Actually, there is often some variance due to a slower cooling rate during the quench as you go deeper but it's not a true surface hardening.
Regarding the threaded inserts ala Stolle. The insert also holds the locking lug seats. An insert which held only the threads would be fairly likely to jump ship under load! The Browning BBR also used an insert. The Voere Titan uses an insert for the locking lug seats while the threads are part of the receiver which appears to be a mild steel (probably 8620 or something of the sort).
I once made up an insert for a P14. My thinking at the time was that a vee thread was a better self centering thread and I didn't want to try and recut the Enfield square thread anyway ( the Enfield action IS hard) so I threaded a piece of chromoly into the P14 then bored and threaded the insert to 1x 16tpi. The result was a demonstration that anyone can head up the wrong path and waste his time. It worked OK but the point or the exercise was a little hard to verify. When I finally made up my P14 target rifle, I used the original square threads and was pretty satisfied with the result. Regards, Bill.
I have never seen a Remington action with the threads offset by .030 and I've checked a lot of them. I suspect Jim's tap may be being deflected by the end of the thread but I could be wrong. I have seen a Remington where the threads were obviously distorted by the stamping of the serial number. The threads were shiny at the location of the letter prefix.
I don't think there would be any real problem with removing the threads entirely and rethreading. One could make the thread 1 1/8x16 tpi. 1 1/8 diameter is judged to be ok when it's used in a Savage receiver so it should be equally alright in a Remington. I frequently rethread Winchester M70 actions to 1 1/16x16 on the theory that if that size works out in a Remington, it will be fine in the Winchester. As a bonus, the winchester will have a complete thread instead of an interupted one.
I've never seen any evidence that the 700 is surface hardened. 4140 is generally hardened right through. Actually, there is often some variance due to a slower cooling rate during the quench as you go deeper but it's not a true surface hardening.
Regarding the threaded inserts ala Stolle. The insert also holds the locking lug seats. An insert which held only the threads would be fairly likely to jump ship under load! The Browning BBR also used an insert. The Voere Titan uses an insert for the locking lug seats while the threads are part of the receiver which appears to be a mild steel (probably 8620 or something of the sort).
I once made up an insert for a P14. My thinking at the time was that a vee thread was a better self centering thread and I didn't want to try and recut the Enfield square thread anyway ( the Enfield action IS hard) so I threaded a piece of chromoly into the P14 then bored and threaded the insert to 1x 16tpi. The result was a demonstration that anyone can head up the wrong path and waste his time. It worked OK but the point or the exercise was a little hard to verify. When I finally made up my P14 target rifle, I used the original square threads and was pretty satisfied with the result. Regards, Bill.
P
PPP MMM
Guest
The hardenning capability of 4140 steel would have the same hardness through the entire wall of the receiver. If there is any noticeable variation in hardness in the depth of this relatively thin section of the receiver it could be only because of one of the two things.
1) The steel used isn't 4140
2) If it's a 4140 steel the receiver is induction coil/surface hardenned.
Shoot well
Peter