cryo treatment

Really Al...Why don't you give us your summary of what you know about the advantages or lack of of cryo barrel treatment? Maybe it will be less so. Are we being too technical?
 
Rustystud said:
Go back to basic chemistry and/or physics class. Taking a barrel back to 300 below (absolute zero) and allowing it to warm back to ambient temperature is a form of stress releiving. There are a number of methods to stress releive metals some involve heat, some involve cold, some involve peening, and there is some thought about ultra sonic.

We that do machine work know stress free metals machine easier and better. We also know the minute a chip is created that the stress process is started all over again. Stress releiving before, during and after the machinging process will have an effect on both the process and finished product.

Nat Lambeth
Click to expand...

freezing any piece of steel will not make it machine easier, but the same piece of steel going thru a normalizing process will. Freezing is done to help get rid of the retained martensite left over from the quench process. Yet with some steel; even that is a moote point. If the steel is known to be a martensetic steel your wasting time and money (most 400 series stainless steels are highly martensetic). With a piece of carbon steel the process often takes fiften or twenty times to reach minimum retained martensite (remember how we used to take that fancey pair of vee blocks and lay them outside all winter long?). With todays quench processes nobody freezes a piece of steel. But you will often see a chunk of aluminum in a freezer for a couple weeks at a time. But this is for different reasons. Modern quench processes donot always use the room temperature oil for a quench anymore. Often the oil is heated (won't say why, but trust me it's good), and the types of oils used are nothing close to what was the norm thirty years ago. With today's steels we are getting a better product unless your into Asian stuff. They tend to heat treat much more consistent, and with certified lots you pretty much now the exact outcome before the first chip is cut.
gary
 
Boyd, in a word, YES..................................

you need to take the old book of rules, all the old conclusions, all of it and put it in the closet, the trash, wherEVER, and start with a CLEAN page, and on the SAME page as is now being read. This is why, knowing you are a doubter, and caught up in the results of the past, I made the offer from Rick. Here are some pages for you to look over:

http://www.metal-wear.com/index.html

Click on "cryo machines" look around the site, Rick is on the ASM heat treat committee.
In short, " this ain't Granny's deep-freeze, Toto." Look around the site, there is a LOT of info there, and hopefully you'll find answers to those nagging perspectives from the past.

A different machine, a different way, a longer dwell, all these things play a part, of a successful, proper, process. As I said, try it out, you just might be very surprised, Very. And, 999.9999 chances out of a thou', you'll be able to see a difference of such a magnitude, even YOU will be very pleased. And Boyd, nobody's going to make you eat your words, or even say, "I TOL'ja!!"

One extra note, Boyd. In the past, Rick has taken objects of different sorts, brake rotors, barrels, and other things done by guys who brought you, and police departments, and other users, the product known as, "Yeah, we tried that, it doesn't work." And the results, for the people who didn't have the ol' axe to grind (hold on, present company excepted), or the brother-in-law who was supplying the PD with brakes(in THAT case even cryo by GOD won't work.) Rick has shown folks that the process, when done properly W I L L W O R K even on things that have been incorrectly done. Thats right, its even been used to correct the original f/u. And even his process may have to be modified, and he's looking in those directions. He has always been a straight-up businessman, a rarity these days. Am I trying to convert everyone on BRC to swarm to his company?? Despite appearences, no. What I am trying to do is, to let folks know that there IS a difference, and to get up and out of the past and try the "new". The retail F/A work isn't really profitable, BUT, there are many people in the game that are also in other sports, and in other professions that can start to THINK..........How could this work with........What if WE tried THIS........What would happen IF........... Then you could realize advancements in transportation (terrestrial). Aviation, means longer TBOs for engines, or engines that could make it TO the TBO, now make it cheaper to fly for the private pilot, and eventually the commercial companies. Marine uses, he's done outdrive gears, that had 5 different values of "lash" or "slop" in 360 degrees, that were only getting 7-10 hours before failure, getting 50 hours, no boat, no fun. Better brakes for racecars? Cheaper to race, all kinds of advancements there in other applications........All because some guy, or, a bunch of "some guy(s)" were playin' around with guns, and found that cryo really can work, and looked in other directions. There's a guy in NC, Precision Rifle and Tool, who will not put on a barrel that doesn't have this done. And I understand that there are some barrelmakers in Wisconsin that had some informal shooting time w/him recently that were very impressed with how his equipment was performing. Oh yeah, this even has applications in medicine, too. That's another story..........

But, I think this thing has been beaten to death, I know I'm guilty, however..........I'm no harder to convince than anyone else...........;) :)

:cool:
 
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Before one throws out ones old conclusions, one needs results that are new and different. Insofar as rifle barrels go, they have not been published. Did you ever read a Herter's catalog?
 
Well, I just took the excellent 17 twist 30 cal off my HV today, (screwed the excellent 18 back on), and I am going to send the 17 to Bryan and get it treated to his specs. It's a proven barrel, (shot 25 x's at Lake Charles), so we will see..............jackie.
 
That would go to.......................

Controlled Thermal Processing
3625 Washington Street
Park City, IL, 60085

ATTN: Rick

When you get it back, clean it, and give it a work out.
Shooting it like you normally do, see if you need an upward tweak, from what you'd normally shoot, under comparable conditions. Also, see if it isn't a bit cooler, you know how it usually gets, so see what you think.......
 
Boyd Allen said:
Really Al...Why don't you give us your summary of what you know about the advantages or lack of of cryo barrel treatment? Maybe it will be less so. Are we being too technical?
Click to expand...

Boyd, I'd rather not...:)

And no, "too technical" don't enter into it.

al
 
Cryo or Hot salt
The hot salt supposedly gives a longer barrel life. From what I see here there is a possibility of a small increase in accuracy.
What happens if you do both???????????
 
jackie schmidt said:
Well, I just took the excellent 17 twist 30 cal off my HV today, (screwed the excellent 18 back on), and I am going to send the 17 to Bryan and get it treated to his specs. It's a proven barrel, (shot 25 x's at Lake Charles), so we will see..............jackie.
Click to expand...

Kudos Jackie, at least you are willing to give it a try. I look forward to a report back on the results. Again way to go.

DR
 
Vern, I'll have to check on...........................

that status. There is a company in Wisconsin that contacted Rick because they felt that the cryo after, would enhance the process they used. I don't know if anything has come of that. I don't see why it wouldn't act positively, after all, that makes two heat treatments, the cold would just be the logical conclusion of a complete cycle. And, I must say, this is a very gentle cycle.

Oh, and Boyd, don't put too much stock in what is or has been published. To find something new, one needs some courage, too. Thats why that offer was made. I spoke to Rick, he said, no problem, just give it an honest test, and provide him with the results. I'm sure, Boyd YOU could be the first, well second, actually, to publish something here on the "new cryo" (that works.) The Carnival barkers that were hyping this fifteen years ago, and even today, cannot produce similar results because of the limitations of the equipment. And if you check out Rick's site, you'll see just a calm explanation as to whats been discovered through the experience of an engineer, on this subject.

I've had everything done to just experiment, triggers, springs, trigger springs, bolt springs, magazines and their springs, barrels, (countless barrels), slides, brakes, I even had a scope that needed a new tube, (AAIIEEE :eek:) I had them send THAT out, too. (It cuts down on the age embrittlement of Aluminum, which, since those scopes are hammer-forged, is probably going to be a good thing in ten years.) And, if I'm still here, I hope I'll be able to give a good report on the outcome. I think that's what happened to it before, I'd loaned the rifle to an older gentleman, and when I got the rifle back, I noticed a white spot on the tube and figured there was a tale to be told, although it wasn't. When I sent it in to be upgraded, it wouldn't hold a fill, as there was an invisible crack up around the turret. Oh, well. And I figured that guy would be the one person to say something, but, he chose not to. So, I made a new rule, I don't loan out the dog, the toothbrush, the guns, the truck, or the wife :eek::D if I had one (not that I'm looking!):rolleyes:

:cool:
 
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Brian,
When I referred to publication, I did not mean by those selling the service. Jackie is a much better tester than I would be, and I trust his objectivity on such matters completely. My problem is that there are so many factors that contribute to the accuracy of a rifle that if it is not working as well as the very best of its type, it is hard to pin down the cause, and the more you know about what the potential sources of accuracy loss are, the worse this problem becomes. Because Jackie shoots a lot, and well, I look forward to reading about his experience with this vendor's cryo treatment. One of the problems we face, in the pursuit of accuracy, is knowing how much importance to place on any of the links in the chain. It is easy to become preoccupied with things that are not very important. Ease of cleaning, and service life, are of only slight interest compared to accuracy, which trumps everything by a wide margin, in competition. If we are not using competition as the yardstick, then all of my hand lapped barrels shoot wonderfully well, and are easy to clean, compared to any factory barrel that I have ever owned.
 
And you may well find.........................

that some of your hand lapped wonderfully well shooting barrels will shoot even better. Now, I believe if I read the same SHNews article that you wrote, that was one of the things you and Nagy commented on.

I know it doesn't mean too much, but I have had a few shooters who shoot factory, because work keeps them too busy to reload, have told me that shooting the same factory ammo after processing did provide better accuracy. Yes, maybe all the stars and planets aligned, and God was smiling, however, one thing that has remained constant has been the fact that those shooters, and they have no reason to....."tell me what I want to hear" have said that every time they go and check the sights, they'll fire a group or two, and the grouping ability has remained excellent, by their standards, but still much better than they'd ever had before.

Unscientific? Absolutely. Satisfaction? Again, Absolutely. And, we'll see here in a few weeks.........
 
A long time ago, during the first cryo for rifles "enlightenment" I became acquainted with a small cryo business operator, who was an auto worker during the day, and an armorer for the reserves on some weekends. He had frozen nearly every thing that you could imagine, entire scopes, and binoculars, musical instruments, cutting tools, and loaded ammunition, including some 30-06 military match that he sent me samples of. For some reason freezing it seemed to make it shoot smaller. The only '06 that I had at the time was a sporterized '03 with a military barrel and a Redfield peep sight. The frozen ammo seemed to shoot smaller. I haven't a clue as to why. I am happy that the factory barrels that digest factory ammo seem to be doing better... really, but using anecdotal data of that sort to plan changes in my PPC would be like me giving tips about what made my '91 Toyota PU run better to some guy that is trying to get a few more HP out of a race car. A new barrel costs about $500. I think that I will let the cryo guys pay for their own R&D. I await Jackie's report with great interest.
 
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A FYI ::

This conpany is very near Kelbys,at N.Lawrence Ohio
I like there work.

CRYOPLUS(tm) (Kathi Fisher)
2429 N. Millbourne
Wooster, OH 44691
(330) 683- 3375
http://www.cryoplus.com/
 
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