couple of questions for the seasoned benchrest reloaders

Sir,

You stated that your loads are anemic by most standards, have you chronographed your loads? What is your load combination?

Usually, when talking about the differences in chambers, barrels, lots of powder, primers, cases, etc., when most speak on here of big differences, they wouldn't be considered big by most common handloaders. I just want to make sure your not having another phenomenon going on here instead of just a hot load.

Hovis
 
HovisKM said:
Sir,

You stated that your loads are anemic by most standards, have you chronographed your loads? What is your load combination?

Usually, when talking about the differences in chambers, barrels, lots of powder, primers, cases, etc., when most speak on here of big differences, they wouldn't be considered big by most common handloaders. I just want to make sure your not having another phenomenon going on here instead of just a hot load.

Hovis
Click to expand...

I think if I could get the cases fullsized properly after every firing there wouldn't be any problem BUT because I don't seem to be able to then each subsequent load becomes hotter and hotter( because of the ever expanding cases) leading to too much pressure and then ruining the case. In the case of the 6x47 it's about 6 loads and in the case of the ulramag it is just 3 loadings. I am going to back off the load in the ultramag by 3 more grains( hopefully it will maintain accuracy) but I still doubt it will solve the problem.I will back off the 6x47 a grain and see what happens with it. In any event to the best of my knowledge my dies will not properly size either of these cases( at least as far as I can tell) but I will do more experimenting and let you guys know how it goes).
 
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I think that your analysis of what is taking place is very incorrect. Just because cases get progressively tighter from being fired repeatedly without being FL sized does not, by itself increase pressure. If you want to learn how to set your FL dies correctly you will need the proper tools to make the necessary measurements. How are you cleaning your rifles? The reason that I ask is that sometimes hard carbon (as distinct from simple powder fouling) can build up in rifles' throats, and cause pressure problems that can be quite severe if the situation is not remedied right away.
 
Boyd Allen said:
I think that your analysis of what is taking place is very incorrect. Just because cases get progressively tighter from being fired repeatedly without being FL sized does not, by itself increase pressure. If you want to learn how to set your FL dies correctly you will need the proper tools to make the necessary measurements. How are you cleaning your rifles? The reason that I ask is that sometimes hard carbon (as distinct from simple powder fouling) can build up in rifles' throats, and cause pressure problems that can be quite severe if the situation is not remedied right away.
Click to expand...

Maybe my analysis is wrong which is why I was asking for opinions from you guys.
Ok, so the first thing I will do is order the proper tools to measure.

I do clean the barrels quite well for both carbon and copper. I know everyone rants about copper but I find carbon is more of an accuracy robber and more difficult to remove( at least from my limited experience).
 
canuck said:
That is a wealth of information inwhich I will need a few days or week to go over and digest.
Ok Al
I am going to put you on the spot.
If you were in my shoes what would you do? Just wait till you shoot the barrel out and start with another reamer?
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I would order another reamer now and have the barrel rechambered, just bite the bullet. (I say this from the perspective of having tried perty much every Scotch Fix in the world.......) THEN, when this barrel IS shot out you'll have your fireform barrel.

al
 
There is a WORLD of difference between removing carbon build up in the bore proper and removing a hard-carbon-and-copper ring from the throat.
 
Boyd Allen said:
I think that your analysis of what is taking place is very incorrect. Just because cases get progressively tighter from being fired repeatedly without being FL sized does not, by itself increase pressure. If you want to learn how to set your FL dies correctly you will need the proper tools to make the necessary measurements. How are you cleaning your rifles? The reason that I ask is that sometimes hard carbon (as distinct from simple powder fouling) can build up in rifles' throats, and cause pressure problems that can be quite severe if the situation is not remedied right away.
Click to expand...

How to do recommend getting rid of carbon in the throat area? I guess I am going to have to invest in a bore scope as well.
As a side note I ordered the hornady guage with inserts from Graf's today and I just had to add one of those Bench Source annealing machines to the order.I also got a hold of Tony Boyer's book which has a wealth of info. It's really great for a rookie like me.Although it is probably going to take me a some time to digest and understand it.
 
If you are wrecking cases, it isn't because you aren't resizing the whole case, it is due to excessive pressure. Period. The only question is where the excess pressure is coming from.

As stated, it ain't coming from incomplete resizing. Can't.

The first thing to check is always too much powder. Period.

After that, check other things. Excess case length would be my next stop. After that, carbon ring.

Frankly, each and every time I've had excess pressure, it has been one of the first two.

YMMV.
 
Nosler#7 manual

In the Nosler#7 manual 88 grains of RL-25 is max. The variance between lot numbers with RL-25 can be as much as 10%. Back your load off. I would also make sure you have at least .0003-.0004 loaded clearance on that .317 neck.
I shoot a 7 ultra with 90 grains of Retumbo and 160 Accubond with no pressure signs. I have no what the velocity is, but it's 3 grains under max load in the same Nosler book.

Back your load down. There will be a load that shoots as well or better at a lower velocity. Find someone that shoots benchrest to show you how to clean your barrel.
Regards, Waverly
 
I was able to check my fired brass against brass from a guy who had one done with a minimum spec sammi JGS reamer( Mine were fired 3 times and his were fired 10 times). From the shoulder on down mine measures 4.5 thou smaller in diameter across the board. I assume this would need a custom die in order to full length size.Am I correct in assuming this or am I off base here?
I am still going to back off the loads further and check for speed and accuracy.I will be trying it out tomorrow.
 
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canuck said:
How to do recommend getting rid of carbon in the throat area?
Click to expand...

Crack open Tony's book to page 203. Read ADDITIONAL CLEANING. You'll need IOSSO bore cleaning paste [or J-B non-embedding bore cleaning compound] and two different size brushes, of different material. :)
 
Large reamers work with standard dies . Match reamers should have matching dies . Redding always had nice tight base dies back when Patrick worked there , he always seemed to know the formula . If I grind a standard reamer I always tell folks most dies will work Hornady , Redding , Forster , L.E. Wilson ect. but standard dies hardly ever work with reamers ground to .002 to .003 over the customers brass and I get that request often . The die folks that seem to have a handle on custom or tight base dies lately are Wayne , Bob Green , and Jim @ JLC and my go to guy for a larger variety of precision dies is John Whidden at Whidden Gun Works . I grind the die reamers for most all the Die companies and now that RCBS is thinking about custom dies I have been making them a few . The sizing reduction I see on the larger company prints is -.0035 to -.004 from SAAMI or known MIN. chamber on body and -.006 or smaller on neck . With The Whidden reamers John has me grind are -.0035 on body from the exact finisher reamer print ( tight base or standard ) that match's the chamber with proper neck reduction , bushing or full length . I have always found that if you purchase a Match or Tight base finish reamer from one company and a Resizer or Die reamer from another your more apt to have a non reduction problem ( sticking and clicking ) . I always grind the finisher and resizer at the same time for a mirror image reduction . I take my hat off to Wayne , Bob , Jim and John as its a B**** to try and keep most folks happy and especially those that don't have a clue .
 
david kiff said:
Large reamers work with standard dies . Match reamers should have matching dies . Redding always had nice tight base dies back when Patrick worked there , he always seemed to know the formula . If I grind a standard reamer I always tell folks most dies will work Hornady , Redding , Forster , L.E. Wilson ect. but standard dies hardly ever work with reamers ground to .002 to .003 over the customers brass and I get that request often . The die folks that seem to have a handle on custom or tight base dies lately are Wayne , Bob Green , and Jim @ JLC and my go to guy for a larger variety of precision dies is John Whidden at Whidden Gun Works . I grind the die reamers for most all the Die companies and now that RCBS is thinking about custom dies I have been making them a few . The sizing reduction I see on the larger company prints is -.0035 to -.004 from SAAMI or known MIN. chamber on body and -.006 or smaller on neck . With The Whidden reamers John has me grind are -.0035 on body from the exact finisher reamer print ( tight base or standard ) that match's the chamber with proper neck reduction , bushing or full length . I have always found that if you purchase a Match or Tight base finish reamer from one company and a Resizer or Die reamer from another your more apt to have a non reduction problem ( sticking and clicking ) . I always grind the finisher and resizer at the same time for a mirror image reduction . I take my hat off to Wayne , Bob , Jim and John as its a B**** to try and keep most folks happy and especially those that don't have a clue .
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Well, I have to admit I don't have a bloody clue but I am new at precision rifles/chambers and trying to learn. Your post has been most helpful. I am also learning a wealth of information from this site and Tony Boyer's book. I wish I had got a hold of that the second it came out.
 
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canuck , to the contrary you definitely have a clue because you investigate , you learn and you acknowledge . Its the folks that have a chance to learn , ask questions and choose not to listen . With them its always the Gunsmiths fault , Reamer makers fault , Die makers fault , Barrel makers fault , Wife's fault .
 
Just another follow-up and another question.
First off I want to thank you fine gentlemen on this board and Tony Boyer for getting me pointed in the right direction. I have learned a lot about properly resizing a case.
The body sizes were fine on my chambers but the headspacing is very tight so I need low profile shell holders( I did grind one down and it workeed but it is kinda a shoddy job so I would like to buy a proper one).
Does anyone sell low profile shell holders or do I need to get a machinist to take one down for me?
 
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Brownells

Canuck, I would like to offer a suggestion to you regarding getting rid of the possible carbon in your chamber neck.
I found a product at Brownells under Cleaning-- Cleaning Pellets-- by VFG.
You will need the VFG adapter and will have to choose the correct pellet for your neck size.
On my 6PPC I use the 6mm or the 6.5mm pellet.
I have a section of old cleaning rod to screw the VFG adapter into and I apply JB or Flitz to the pellet.
I then chuck this rod into a drill motor and use low RPM, adding more JB as required.
The reason I like these pellets is I feel using the square edge pellet to go into the neck may work better than using the barrel brush. Results are confirmed with my bore scope.

Last weekend at the range a fellow was shooting factory 30-06 rounds and his Rem semi auto was trying to tear off the rims. Checking the Factory rounds for length they were 2.484" to 2.486" long but the fired cases were much longer. The question was asked if the chamber neck was ever cleaned. The answer was no as the rifle was was just purchased used and not cleaned. The combined brain trust suggested he clean the barrel and the chamber neck before firing any more ammo.

Good luck,
Centerfire
 
Centerfire said:
The combined brain trust suggested he clean the barrel and the chamber neck before firing any more ammo.
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Well I hope the "combined brain trust" gets back to us on this one because if a dirty barrel and chamber neck are the problem here I'll eat public crow with a plastic fork......
 
It seems to me that many people are of the mistaken opinion that with regard to the body of a case, that the tighter the fit, the better. Reamers are ground and chambers cut on this assumption, and while I think that there are places in chambers that need to have closer than stock clearance, the body diameters are not one. I take old brass, that is about as work hardened as I can find, size it with MY FL die (or that of the fellow whose rifle it is going to be) , measure the sized cases, add the clearances that I want and order a reamer. It works. I know that it doesn't sound as custom, but working backward from a stock FL die has given great results on a number of projects. We have even been able to use one piece dies, by going to a tight neck chamber, and have set them up so that with necks of a specific thickness and a given bullet diameter, that we have .002 neck tension with the expander, and .003 without. Before some of you get all expander ball apoplectic, let me reassure you that that little amount of work on a case neck is in no way detrimental. You may be curious as to why one would bother with a one piece die. When they match the chamber and brass, they make VERY straight cases.
 
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