"cold weld" or whatever it is.....

alinwa

oft dis'd member
I have reason to believe that my "bullet pull" is increasing on my preloaded cartridges to the extent that I'm getting excess ES and thereby excess dispersion on target. I have reason to believe that rounds which have set longer (say left over from the last match) show pressure signs that new loads do not.

I shoot naked and don't normally specifically clean the inside of my necks. I haven't found cleaning with a brush to help. I use approximately .002 interference fit.

I know a lot of guys reseat the day before.

Any other ways to approach this?

al
 
al,

It's said on some of the websites that you can break the weld by reseating the projectiles a thou or two deeper in the case but that isn't going to help you with only two thou interference.

I wouldn't be surprised at your observations, though. When we travelled to England in 06 to shoot 1200 yard match rifle, a couple of the guys who shot naked projectiles with loads tippytoing right on the edge were the ones who got pressure signs & the odd popped primer. We needed 500 plus rounds each & because of shipping issues had to load up to 7 weeks before we started to use the loads in anger. Next time, we're planning running the loads a tad long & seating them back just before we shoot them.

There's the other issue too, so I read, that brass tends to become less elastic some time after it's sized, so it could be a neck tension issue by that route too.

John
 
Graphite

Al I believe last year maybe two an article in PS outlined the author dipping the case necks in graphite prior to seating bullets. He conducted tests and I believe showed that the graphite allowed the bullet pull to be more consistent.
I have been doing this since I read the article. I believe my low SD's are related to this article.
Centerfire
 
Hi Al,
I think it is best to leave brass fired and unresized until you need it, then resize,load ,seat and fire. Of course,this is a "when practical" comment.When loading for hunting,war or self defense it dosn't seem to matter.But for a decided by .001 BR match I think we want the brass ductile and responsive instead of hard and memory set.Re-seating bullets deeper in the neck is a "funky" affair at best and in my opinion, not conducive to good accuracy.
Joel
 
I personally don't know this Nader guy, but I need to meet him he has lots of good ideas. I shoot a tuner and I shoot using hBN, but I continue to load at the range before my relay and after my lst relay. I also continue to do this method while finding plenty of time to keep up on cleaning my bore. When I got into benchret I did so and enjoyed it because you not only had to shoot well, but you had to maintain your rifle, and loads in top shape and tune all day. There are easy ways to everything buty I enjoy loading, cleaning and shooting, also some needed tinkering here and there. Loading before my relay works fine for me.

Paul
 
Loads

We have mentioned this before, but it bears repeating in this discussion.

Many times, I have had loaded rounds left over from a match that, upon firing, all went in the same hole.

The last time this happenned was with my 30BR. After that first match at Austin, I had about around 9 loaded rounds left. The next week end, I shot them during a practice session and the resulting group looked like a 40 caliber bullet hole in the paper.

I am almost tempted to pre load two weeks before a match with the 30.......jackie
 
Well, thanks for all your thoughts so far.

At this point I'm reduced to re-seating before match day :)

Incidentally this whole thing is simply not an issue with short range stuff.

al
 
This is perfectly normal behaviour for brass.
Increased neck tension is a result of the tension that the brass is under after a bullet is seated . This causes a change in the structure of the brass called stress corrosion. This cause the brass to start to shrink and harden very slowly. However as a case gets harder in the neck the tendency accelerates.
So with precision loaded ammo in highly accurate guns like you have any slight increase in neck tension can show up on the target.
I did a ten year trial on neck weld due to stress corrosion and got some startling neck shrinkage results.
Most tartget ammo will not be loaded for very long , the slight accuracy loss is the only indicator . However after 10 years the results are magnified to a level that is easily seen in photos.
I would suggest that annealing your case necks will help.
Also polishing the inside neck will help .
Reducing your neck tension to .001 if it is possible will help.
My 10 year test proved to me that good moly coating also helped reduce the neck tension variations .
New unfired brass will hold up better for longer than storing ammo in several times fired brass.
Don't use ammonia type cleaners on your brass as it will harden the brass .
 
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Hi Al,
I think it is best to leave brass fired and unresized until you need it, then resize,load ,seat and fire. Of course,this is a "when practical" comment.When loading for hunting,war or self defense it dosn't seem to matter.But for a decided by .001 BR match I think we want the brass ductile and responsive instead of hard and memory set.Re-seating bullets deeper in the neck is a "funky" affair at best and in my opinion, not conducive to good accuracy.
Joel

They are not talking about seating bullets deeper .
They are saying to seat your bullets longer than you want and then just before a match the day before is ok , seat them the rest of the way to your normal seating depth.
 
I use two techniques to combat the problem being discussed here. I almost always preload in the final hours just before a match to minimize changes in neck tension. This is alternately identified by most of my shooting buddies as procrastination and/or sleep disorder. If for some reason I must store loaded ammo I do so in a geothermally stabilized chamber (the basement) and bring it slowly up to shooting temperature on match day in a climate controlled normalizing chamber otherwise known as "the truck".

Also I avoid polishing inside case necks but instead pass a nylon brush through the neck a few times to knock the loose stuff out, believing that a little powder residue acts as a prophylactic to cold weld. This is identified by my shooting buddies as laziness.

A third accuracy secret that I practice is to maintain a natural level of powder residue in my primer pockets. When combined with enough primer seating pressure to crush the pellet, this residue provides just the right amount of cushion to achieve ultimate consistancy primer light-off and lowest extreme velocity spread. Some call this sloth. Ha! What do they know!

Greg
 
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Also I avoid polishing inside case necks but instead pass a nylon brush through the neck a few times to knock the loose stuff out, believing that a little powder residue acts as a prophylactic to cold weld. This is identified by my shooting buddies as laziness.


Greg
In the short term you will see little difference but dirty case necks will increase neck weld over a longer time , the shrinking of the case neck exerts additional neck tension and the grity potentialy corrosive residue acts as a locking agent between the two surfaces.
While you load just before a shoot you will not see much effect.
 
Valentine,
Yeah, I get it,but unless you get a full run( from case mouth to desired position) at bullet seating, results are going to be " funky". Seat everything to XXX then re-seat to XXX-.005 and your stuff will cough and gag on target.But don't believe me,try it in a real important match like the SS then tell me what you find.
Joel
 
Al, the way some of us east-coast 1,000 yard shooters do it is to load in at home, but just place the bullet upside down in the case. All you have to carry to the range is a seating die and an arbor press. Seating the bullets takes little time.

A bit of foam between the rounds and the box-top keeps things in place. I haven't lost one yet, and that includes a couple of times when the ammo chest turned over in the car.
 
Hi J,

I was looking for a little humor with my post but what I described actually is what I do. There are many procedures that we employ that we worry might be important, but we aren't sure which ones really are.

Begining about ten years ago, in my personal quest for long range precision in competition, I would do about twenty things to my ammo that I had read or heard were or probably were important. Over the intervening years I continue to cut back on that twenty in order to simplify my labor at the reloading bench. In spite of much simplification in ammo prep, and my diminished visual acuity behind the gun over that same period, my personal performance seems to continue to improve over time. I think that's because with greater experience, I make fewer mistakes behind the gun and this game is about minimizing the worst shot.

In terms of what seems most important for ammo prep, to me, a die and chamber that work together is the crucial beginning for everything that follows. Al has been very helpful to me on this front (and I'll bet to many others as well) with his ongoing reminders and regular drum beating as to this fact. You can't do good work without brass that works in your rifle. The chamber makes the brass and if you screw it up with the die all is lost.Thanks Al.

Then the next thing is to find the middle of my rifle's tune and put my ammo there to minimize ugly surprises when conditions shift before I go to the line. I shoot all the ammo in a box before any of it is reloaded so that powder residue build up, neck tension and any other issue related to the number of firings remains the same for each case in that group. I use the chamber of the rifle as a gage to full length size just enough that the bolt handle falls without any resistance. If a few cases cause the lugs to drag a little I'll massage those cases in the die with extra lube until the bolt will drop on that case. I weigh my powder charges to the nearest kernel of powder to minimize vertical resulting from velocity spread. If a bullet seats with noticebly different drag than the others it gets segregated to use as an early sighter. Donuts kill groups even when the bullet seats above them because varying constriction in the neck screws with gas flow out of the case and changes the pressure curve. The best way to avoid donuts is to not neck turn at all and have a chamber that works with your brass as it comes out of the box (this requires good brass) and a die that works with your chamber. To me, these things seem to matter.

I offer all of the above to put my observations about neck polishing in context with my current loading practices.

Case neck polishing is one of the things I don't do anymore. I can't find any evidence in my own shooting to support its importance with this one caviat. I shoot roomy neck clearance, about 1% of caliber passes the "that looks about right" test for me. Less neck clearance may produce different results.

For my most current example to support the case that polished necks probably don't matter, even after considerable storage, I shot the same ammo (loaded for about 12 hours) last August at the Piedmont 600 yd match as I did at this month's match (7 months later). The results were very similar and my judgement is that this ammo's performance was identical and close to flawless on both dates.

I've gotten excellent results from ammo that's been loaded for more than a decade. I do recognize that stressed brass moves over time but if the stress is the same for each case in question and the time is the same I imagine that the effect is the same among that group of cartridges and their bullets will fall into the same group.

That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

Of course, as they say, YMMV.

Best regards and good shooting,

Greg
 
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Thats the problem the brass ages inconsistently.
After a 10 year trial I got some bullets that extracted very easy to bullets that required a Ch collet puller in a RC press and some real muscle to get them out. You could even see where the metal of the case neck had started to fuse with the copper jacket the bullet.
The ones loaded with the dirty necks on naked bullets were the hardest to pull on average and displayed a white corrosion inside the neck.

There is so many loading ideas and component qualities that hard and fast rules are few.
However you are talking about accuracy effects and I am talking about neck welding effects that may or may not effect accuracy.
Leaving your ammo loaded in hard cases might improve accuracy in some situations. In others it may destroy it.
However I have prov-en to myself that neck welding happens , The cause is not simple and involves stress corrosion and maybe even galvanic reactions over time.
Load up some ammo in several times fired brass , leave the necks dirty and store them for 10 years and you will get a big shock.

I have experienced fine accuracy going off for no reason and in the end tracked it to hard case necks and loaded ammo sitting around for too long.
The accuracy was still very good but not consistently tight. You blame the wind the scope , yourself and a host of other things but in the end it was just the problems caused by an effect we call , neck weld .
A person using factory ammo will not consider neck weld.
A person using a case only one or two times and chucking it will not consider neck weld.
A person seating their bullets just before a match will not experience real neck weld but have considered it because that's why they are doing that.
A person that regularly anneals his case necks and cleans the inside neck then seats a moly coated bullet will in most cases not see neck weld unless the ammo is allowed to sit around a long time and even then the accuracy loss may go undetected.
This is the major problem with this kind of thing if people have not seen it they think it does not exist.

The term neck weld covers a long process of change that starts when you seat a bullet and put the brass under stress. There are many other things that can reduce or increase the long term effect that is a normal part of reloading with different products . Using a die system that reduces work hardening can reduce the speed of neck weld onset.
Some ammo , military stuff is sealed at the case neck and this combined with the fact that the brass is unfired will make them resist neck weld for longer periods than reloads will.
So you are telling me that you have used reloads that have been sitting around loaded for 10 years , in a competition and not seen any accuracy loss.
I don't believe you.
 
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Cold Weld

One of the things I do with preloads is , seat the bullets out about .050, I uisert a washer between the wilson seater stem and the base. I try to arrive early at the a match and then reseat the bullet with the washer removed from the seater stem. This seems to eliminate the cold weld.

Just my 2 Cents but it seem to work for me

Geo
 
J.,

You've covered much territory and I concur with most of your observations, but I want to pull a few things out of your post for response.

Thats the problem the brass ages inconsistently.
After a 10 year trial I got some bullets that extracted very easy to bullets that required a Ch collet puller in a RC press and some real muscle to get them out. You could even see where the metal of the case neck had started to fuse with the copper jacket the bullet.
The ones loaded with the dirty necks on naked bullets were the hardest to pull on average and displayed a white corrosion inside the neck.

I brush necks to get the rough stuff out but leave a veneer of powder fouling in the case neck in the belief that brass on guilding metal, if both surfaces are very clean may be more likely to bond (possibly by galvanic action of the dissimilar alloys) and that the barrier to small currents that that veneer represents is an aid to avoiding sticking. I haven't seen the white stuff develop if I brush the crud out.

Load up some ammo in several times fired brass , leave the necks dirty and store them for 10 years and you will get a big shock.

I did and I was shocked, but it was nice.

So you are telling me that you have used reloads that have been sitting around loaded for 10 years , in a competition and not seen any accuracy loss.

Yes. Not by design as a test but by circumstance. But yes.

I don't believe you.

OK. Maybe someone will. I do know that confidence is important when you get to the line. If you think it's important, it is. Do what works for you. For me I'm spending less time on ammo and more time thinking about what I do at the bench and just paying attention. Seems to work better for me.

Greg
 
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Lot of good info here, thanks all......

So let me rephrase.... I'll probably follow the advice and SEAT at the match, or the day before :)

I have NOT had good luck with old ammo when using slower powder and heavy bullets.

My last two matches I actually placed OK but was thoroughly disappointed with my carefully prepared match loads........ too much vertical. And my last minute, thrown-together sighters table-topped, less than an inch of vert. My sighters shot 'wayyy better than my match loads (at least in my mind :rolleyes: )

I put a real scare in my target pullers........ and then proceeded to shoot shotgun blasts for effect. :D

Wheww!!!

LOL

al
 
So you do clean your case necks , you just don't polish them up bright.
Well you are not seating into a dirty neck are you?
Here is some photos of the effects I am talking about.
The open case was a naked bullet seated into an uncleaned neck in a case that was fired 8 times.
The place where the bullet base stopped in the case neck is plainly obvious from the corrosion buildup.
The white lines lenghthwise in the neck are entry points for air and moisture drawn in and out of the case by temperature variations over 10 years.
This is why the Military seal their ammo.

The two cartridges together one naked one moly display obvious brass shrinkage below the base of the bullet so neck tension is sky high.
However the moly bullets pulled easier on average.

Single pulled bullet shows the start of actual fusing of some cartridge brass onto the guilding metal jacket .

There was no single solitary effect to observe , there was several effects all culminating in one thing . Eratic neck tension from nearly normal to nearly tearing the case neck off.
The test was done in a way to get the worst scenario so the effect could be seen without a million dollar lab.
Old hard cases , dirty necks , left for 10 years in an ammo box that was moved about and subject to heat and cold.
I am not saying this will happen to you in the short term ! This just shows what can happen and does. The effects that lead to Neck Weld is real and observable if you have the patience.
It all starts with just a little increase in neck tension and ends up like the photos. The time frames of what happens when and at what stage is impossible to say as the efffects seem to vary wildly also.
 

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So you do clean your case necks , you just don't polish them up bright.

Exactly as I said in my first post I brush, casually, briefly, without much effect, just to get the loose stuff out. I don't polish. I use a nylon brush and just knock the loose stuff out deliberately leaving a layer of powder residue in the neck. I don't want to see brass. I don't use a brass brush and I don't use steel wool and sticking the case over a spinning nylon brush takes very little time. Have I misled you somehow? So am I cleaning? You can call what I do whatever you want.

Well you are not seating into a dirty neck are you?

Well I thought I was. There is powder residue left in the neck that touches the bullet. I do that with intent, knowledge and deliberation. And I get results doing it that seem to work. Let's see, I get accurate ammo with less work and time spent. Hey, maybe someone would want to know that! Or not. Am I seating in a dirty neck? You tell me.

Your photo with the shrunk necks looks like snakes after a big meal! I don't think I seen that before. How much do you think a neck can shrink?

Greg
 
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