CNC for stocks..?

S

steve b.

Guest
Is anyone here using a CNC milling machine for stock work rather than a trace machine? Something where you can install a blank and the machine will cut the outside pattern and do a general inletting?

Thanks.
 
I can/do. (to some extent)

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Here's the deal on this as there are a couple ways to skin this cat.

One is with a probe. The other is with a solid model.

We'll cover the probe first as it is pretty much the only one being used in the industry today.

A Reneshaw probe is nothing more than a lollypop that sticks out of a tool holder that records a position when it bumps into something. A program is written so that it works within a confined box. The machine moves the probe until it contacts something (in this case our master blank stock) and that point is recorded in space. When your all done you have a cloud of 3 dimensional positions recorded in space. This "point cloud" then has line geometry assigned to it and toolpaths are then generated from the lines.

Advantages: Relatively simple/fast to replicate/duplicate a pre-existing design.

Disadvantages: I'll cover these individually.

1. It's almost impossible to manipulate a point cloud. This means what you copy is what you get. Since it's lines and dots there's no real way to tie it all together and be able to stretch or twist while having the rest of it still flow together. This creates its own set of challenges when it comes to machining it. The short line segments aren't tied together very elegantly and this can cause erratic/spastic feeding which reduces surface finish quality and is hard on the machine. There are some filtering options but they are a band aid fix to a bigger issue.

2. Tool selection is limited to the diameter of the probe that generated the point cloud. You can't (well you can, but it'll look like crap) probe with a 1/4 stylus and then machine with a 3/8 ball. The offset will be wrong and there's no real way to 'fix' that using this method.

3. Machining options are limited. A probe does its best to work at a right angle to a stock and along the Z axis of the machine. A tool will also machine this way. With a ball endmill on wood you end up with a point line of crush at the tip of the tool. This is because no matter how fast you spin that tool, the center is basically motionless. This chews through the wood and compresses the fibers as a consequence. When you add finish the grain raises and you have an extra step now to sand out the raised grain. Not a show stopper but a pain in the arse.

Alternatives:

Free form surfacing and solid models.

The software for doing this exists and its now available. It's primary use is in aerospace and mold making. Drawing a stock though isn't as easy as it initially appears and there in lies the challenge. Three of us have been fiddling with this since 2004 and we just NOW (a week ago) stumbled onto a procedure that shows some promise.

The advantages are numerous. The outside geometry can be manipulated to fit an individual. The tooling options are much greater. The machining options in terms of using canted multi axis processes are almost endless, and the cycle times are greatly reduced since more effective tools can be used to get the job done.

Disadvantages:

Expensive/time consuming to develop and bring to fruition.


Hope this helped answer your question.

C
 
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Thanks Chad,

That is fascinating stuff, but just too far outta my reach at this point. I will stick with hand tools and a mill for now, and see what I can come up with later on.

Thanks all for the input.

s.
 
I cut stocks on a CNC router both outside and inside (inletting). The problem, or not, depending on how you wish to look at it, is that the CNC system doesn't use a pattern in the traditional sense, you have to design the stock in a CAD system and transfer that to the CNC system for machining. Each method of stock manufacture has it's pro's and con's. While manual duplicating is 100% labor I can do something else, like install a barrel while the CNC machine is cutting a stock. On the other hand it's easier to make changes, do "one offs", and things like that with a manual duplicator. It's a darn sight easier and cheaper to get started with a manual. So, each has it's advantages.
 
Many of the stocks we manufacture started out life in my computer in a 3d program and were then cut out cnc to produce a master for mould making. Manipulating surfaces in 3d is not for the faint of heart although there are many ways to do it. One of my favorites it to make a model of complex parts like grips manually (hard to go by feel on a computer screen) and then do a 3d scan and incorporate this into the 3d software. Ambidextrous parts can be mirrored in seconds to produce a stock that is very symmetrical. For making wood stocks you would need very high volume to justify the expense for machinery to do it in a profitable time. A copy machine lets the operator decide how fast to feed and when rather than sitting in front of a computer beforehand making those decisions, and getting it wrong. It's a steep learning curve if you have no experience.
 
Hi IAN,

Hey, gimme a call! I owe you money and you owe me a stock! :D I keep gettin your machine buddy!

See ya!

Chad
 
I think at this point I'm gonna stick with a manual process for duplication. I have a hard time finding patterns that I like, and have begun working on my own master patterns. It takes so much time that I wonder how anyone ever made any money at this.

I also have a few classics that I want to copy, so it's lookin like some time on the manual mill for starters.

I found a trace system http://www.radarcarve.net/ on line. Looks interesting and not too expensive, but I'm not sure if this is the right widget for duplicating the larger BR stocks we tend to use.

Then there is this item: http://www.wood-carver.com/, which appears much nicer, but at 3x the cost. If you move over to the video section, the stock they trace is fairly simple, and the base wood for the new stock looks like pine. I'm not sure how cool that bit would be or how long it would last running through walnut like that.

Anyhow, thanks for the help!

s.
 
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Steve,
A good manual duplicator will set you back close to $10,000. Most of the ones for $3,000 or less are in the "tinker toy" class and will scrap more stocks than they will make for you. You'll be better off buying stocks from someone else. The problem is ridgidity. Wood grain never runs straight, is never homogenous, and the router will always try to take control away from you. The better machines have brakes on the horizontal axis to help keep this from happening while you hold onto things in the vertical and front to back axis. The machine still needs to be rigid enough to duplicate the fine inletting required. I don't think this is possible with the cheap machines.
 
FWIW Dakota Arms, Inc. makes a VERY, VERY nice duplicator. When I left them/Nesika in 06 they were about 12-13K.
 
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