Case design:

[Al Nyhus]

Al,
What sort of bbl life did you get out of your .165 short 308?
Ben

Hi Ben. Throat life was very, very good. Typically, I'd see about .020-.025 throat advancement at about the 1,500 round mark with N135 and the 118-125's at 2980-3020 fps.

Barrel life is about more than throat wear. At about 1,800 rounds you could start to see the 'loaded' edge of the lands starting to roll over a bit and loose it's crisp edge. It would still shoot dots at 100 and 200 yds. At about 2,200 the 200 yd. accuracy would start to slip a bit but the lands didn't look any different. By 2,500 rounds you could see things getting loose at 100 yds...shots that should have dropped right in there just didn't go..sloppy 10's when you're nailing conditions that should give you X's. Looking at the lands at that point showed more 'roll'.

I saw this in five excellent performing 3 groove barrels from a leading mfg. and decided to try some barrels with more lands...thinking that more lands might spread the load out a bit more rather than place all the load on just three lands. My reason for doing this was see if I could get a bit more accuracy life.

But I never saw any big improvements in barrel life between the three groove versions and the various 4,5 and 6 groove configs, though. The lands still seem to be the limiting factor in these barrels accuracy lifespan. I'm using some cut rifled barrels now and monitoring them...we'll have too see how it goes.

About those super .30 barrels that still pound out X's with 5-7,000 rounds through them...I know they exist because I've seen 'em. But I just haven't been fortunate enough to have one of my own.

But if I can get 1800-2000 rounds of great accuracy from these barrels...they don't owe me a thing at that point.

Just my observations....but like Tim Wilson says: "I Could Be Wrong".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRzJfdG_5w8

 

[Bnhpr]

OK, thanks Al and Al

I'm going to try to shoot this bbl as much as possible this summer for practice...if I'm lucky to get that much bench time.

I'm ordering a 8lb keg of N135. What bullet would you recommend and load for me to start with?

I'm shooting the berger 110 and Speer 125....

 

[Al Nyhus]

Ben: Pick up the phone...dial (515) 438-4010...and when Randy Robinett answers tell him you'd like 1,000 of his 7 ogive 118's.

When you get 'em, set up the seating depth so the seating stem is .025 shorter than the 'just touching' figure, size your necks with a bushing .003 under what your loaded rounds measure, a Fed 210M primer (don't get Randy started on Federal primers..I warned 'ya) and add N135 till it shoots. Then add some more neck tension.

Then forget about the tuning, go practice in the worst conditions you can find and get to the first registered match you can.

Life will be good...... -Al

 

[Bnhpr]

Ben: Pick up the phone...dial (515) 438-4010...and when Randy Robinett answers tell him you'd like 1,000 of his 7 ogive 118's.

When you get 'em, set up the seating depth so the seating stem is .025 shorter than the 'just touching' figure, size your necks with a bushing .003 under what your loaded rounds measure, a Fed 210M primer (don't get Randy started on Federal primers..I warned 'ya) and add N135 till it shoots. Then add some more neck tension.

Then forget about the tuning, go practice in the worst conditions you can find and get to the first registered match you can.

Life will be good...... -Al

Thanks again Al,

I'll have to wait to call Randy, but I will get some on order....I am in Korea working just now, and calling home is a hassle.

Thanks for the info.

Ben

 

[Pete Wass]

Great advice Ben

Ben: Pick up the phone...dial (515) 438-4010...and when Randy Robinett answers tell him you'd like 1,000 of his 7 ogive 118's.

When you get 'em, set up the seating depth so the seating stem is .025 shorter than the 'just touching' figure, size your necks with a bushing .003 under what your loaded rounds measure, a Fed 210M primer (don't get Randy started on Federal primers..I warned 'ya) and add N135 till it shoots. Then add some more neck tension.

Then forget about the tuning, go practice in the worst conditions you can find and get to the first registered match you can.

Life will be good...... -Al

Randy's 7's are as good as they get.

 

[Bnhpr]

Pete,

I just sent U an email.

ben

 

[alinwa]

Al,

I built a .165 short 308 with no freebore, Krieger 17 twister for an HBR rifle. I have maybe 300 rounds through it. My only complaint is trimming the brass. I have to get a better setup there.

I've heard I might be able to form a 30x47 case into it?

I have an expaniron to neck up 6.5x47 brass? Should I buy the brass and try it?

I'm shooting new brass with H380 and Speer 125 tnt's and then H322 and Berger 110's after that.

The funny part is that I have been doing just as well with the TNT's and H380 as the latter.

Both loads outshoot me.

Ben

Ok, I'm gonna' go at this point by point....

I built a .165 short 308 with no freebore, Krieger 17 twister for an HBR rifle. I have maybe 300 rounds through it. My only complaint is trimming the brass. I have to get a better setup there.

re trimming the brass..... YES you've got to find the problem which is that the die is set too low. You're shoving the shoulder back too far. (another way to "see" it is that you're shoving the case UP THROUGH THE NECK OF THE DIE each time.....) Shim the die UP until it's not even sizing the shoulder, then slowly work down until it JUUST bumps the shoulder the tiniest amout that you can measure. Your brass will never grow again. NOW..... when you're going to set rounds aside for any length of time you need to give them an extra half-thou bump AND as brass ages you may need to adjust the bump effect a little. It helps to have a large shimstack.

I've heard I might be able to form a 30x47 case into it?

I'll just say probably not. Unless you're really trimming that .308 case back and dealing with the huge donut.....

I have an expaniron to neck up 6.5x47 brass? Should I buy the brass and try it?

No. First of all I'd NEVER expandiron up when you can blow it up much better, and secondly I really doubt that your length is right.

I'm shooting new brass with H380 and Speer 125 tnt's and then H322 and Berger 110's after that.

The funny part is that I have been doing just as well with the TNT's and H380 as the latter.

Both loads outshoot me.

I doubt it

get'cherself some real bullets and prepare to be amazed...... unless you've got a really accurate run of Speers??? I guess I can't discount that possibility but hey, Randy's bullets FIGHT to get into the same hole...



ha'fun


al

 

[Bnhpr]

I was not clear, sorry. the brass trimming I'm bitching about is for initial forming. I start with 308 Lapua brass, and end up with a 1/2" neck I have to chew off. I mount my case trimmer in the lathe and use it as a power trimmer, but it is still slow.

My brass isn't growing abnormally. My die setup is quite good I think, as I machined .165 off the die first, and then chambered the rifle on a tight case I made with that die. My die is barely bumping the fired brass. I did check growth, and I think it is .002" or so I can't remember...I'll check again.

As far as blowing it up, I was going to make a fire forming bbl? I have a pile of 30 cal bbls lying around??

Good bullets I will order asap! aye aye!

Ben

 

[Pete Wass]

A couple of good tools

I was not clear, sorry. the brass trimming I'm bitching about is for initial forming. I start with 308 Lapua brass, and end up with a 1/2" neck I have to chew off. I mount my case trimmer in the lathe and use it as a power trimmer, but it is still slow.

My brass isn't growing abnormally. My die setup is quite good I think, as I machined .165 off the die first, and then chambered the rifle on a tight case I made with that die. My die is barely bumping the fired brass. I did check growth, and I think it is .002" or so I can't remember...I'll check again.

As far as blowing it up, I was going to make a fire forming bbl? I have a pile of 30 cal bbls lying around??

Good bullets I will order asap! aye aye!

Ben

I bought a Possum Hollow neck trimmer from Sinclair, I think . It indexes on the shoulder of the case so once you know the length of the neck you want the trimmer will cut it. You can look at mine and perhaps make one like it. It is a very simple design. Jim Goody also sells one that has a pilot the neck fits over and also indexes off the shoulder for neck length. you can cut necks off in seconds with it. I use bof, one to rough and the second for final length.

 

[alinwa]

I was not clear, sorry. the brass trimming I'm bitching about is for initial forming. I start with 308 Lapua brass, and end up with a 1/2" neck I have to chew off. I mount my case trimmer in the lathe and use it as a power trimmer, but it is still slow.

My brass isn't growing abnormally. My die setup is quite good I think, as I machined .165 off the die first, and then chambered the rifle on a tight case I made with that die. My die is barely bumping the fired brass. I did check growth, and I think it is .002" or so I can't remember...I'll check again.

As far as blowing it up, I was going to make a fire forming bbl? I have a pile of 30 cal bbls lying around??

Good bullets I will order asap! aye aye!

Ben

How long is your finally formed and finished case?

Blowing up ROCKS!!! It makes perfect cases. And it'll make longer cases. Give me your case OAL and I'll tell you whether or not the 6.5X47L brass will work.

al

 

[Bnhpr]

How long is your finally formed and finished case?

Blowing up ROCKS!!! It makes perfect cases. And it'll make longer cases. Give me your case OAL and I'll tell you whether or not the 6.5X47L brass will work.

al

1.850 max case length.

 

[alinwa]

1.850 max case length.

You are one LUCKY or one FAR THINKING DUDE my friend!!

The 30X47L cases that I've blown out stretch clear out to 1.864-1.871!!! Plenty of room to blow out and trim back to length.


YEAAHHHHH! Prepare yourself for perfect cases and gain an extra 200-300fps in the process.


NOW for the necessary caveats:

#1, for this to work you must be chambered such that you can achieve the requisite crush-fit. If your chamber is already TOO LONG then you've got a problem but if your chamber is TOO SHORT to accept the virgin 6.5X47L brass, or if it crushes right out of the box, you're in Fat City!!!

#2, It has been noted that blowing out necks with powder can dent your lands. In other words those caselips SLAP out and could conceivably dent your leade if it's forming so long that it's out of the chamber neck........

#3, May I STRONGLY suggest you burn up some shotgun powder instead of playing with pistol powder and packing or C.O.W. Below I'll post pix of cases formed using Win Superlite shotgun powder..... most any shotgun powder will do. I've used Clays also. "40kliks" is about half a casefull and "70kliks" is up near the shoulder. The "kliks" are graduations on my Harrell measure.


opinionsby



al

 

[Bnhpr]

You are one LUCKY or one FAR THINKING DUDE my friend!!

The 30X47L cases that I've blown out stretch clear out to 1.864-1.871!!! Plenty of room to blow out and trim back to length.


YEAAHHHHH! Prepare yourself for perfect cases and gain an extra 200-300fps in the process.


NOW for the necessary caveats:

#1, for this to work you must be chambered such that you can achieve the requisite crush-fit. If your chamber is already TOO LONG then you've got a problem but if your chamber is TOO SHORT to accept the virgin 6.5X47L brass, or if it crushes right out of the box, you're in Fat City!!!

#2, It has been noted that blowing out necks with powder can dent your lands. In other words those caselips SLAP out and could conceivably dent your leade if it's forming so long that it's out of the chamber neck........

#3, May I STRONGLY suggest you burn up some shotgun powder instead of playing with pistol powder and packing or C.O.W. Below I'll post pix of cases formed using Win Superlite shotgun powder..... most any shotgun powder will do. I've used Clays also. "40kliks" is about half a casefull and "70kliks" is up near the shoulder. The "kliks" are graduations on my Harrell measure.


opinionsby



al

Al Nyhus and Pete Wass helped me design the case. Al mentioned that this was possible.

I will make a fireforming BBl out of a CM blank I have lying around. I have an adams and bennet $60 1.250 blank in my machine shop. I guess I could cut it up into 3 fireforming bbls?

I'll use a new piece of 6.5x47 brass to headspace it with?

As I understand, I want the fireformed brass to be .002 shorter at the shoulder than my HBR chamber?

Should I use the same reamer??....308 with 334 nk, no freebore (what HBR is using) or 308 with std neck and .040" freebore, that ill allow the brass to go further?



thanks everyone for taking the time to help a beginner, I could not be more pleased with how this thing shoots already.

 

[Bnhpr]

Here are 3 pictures concerning this HBR rifle. 6x burris scope.

The target is the first dozen rounds after I chambered the barrel. I cleaned in between the first 5.

I was shooting at the top right bull for the first 8, then at the center of the square for the rest...This is with the cheap bullets.

 

[Al Nyhus]

Al (Nyhus) mentioned that this was possible.

I might have a bit of experience with this...

Ben, there is only around .015 difference in the case head-datum line measurement between a 6.5X47 Lapua case and your .165 shortened 308W case....the 6.5X47 case being the shorter of the two.

Which is why I suggested the 1.850 case length based on the .165 short 308W back when you started this project. You can shorten the 308 Lapua case or use the 6.5X47 Lapua cases. This isn't exactly new ground for HBR shooters......

There's no need to make using the 6.5X47 case in this chamber any harder than need be. Just expand 'em to .30 with a tapered expander like the Redding #16307, neck turn, anneal, use a stiff load of H322 or similar fast burning powder, seat a 125 TNT .025 'jammed', lightly wipe the cases with some WD40....and fire 'em. The shoulder will pop foward and out will roll a very nicely fireformed case that will fit your chamber exactly. No need for a seperate fireform barrel, etc, etc. By the time you get done fiddling with all of that you could have fireformed all your cases in the barrel they're going to be used in and saved a lot of time and monkey motion.

After you fire 'em the first time, then you can uniform the primer pockets and debur the flash holes. You'll need to experiment with flash hole size anyway for best results with this case.

I know you're pressed for time, Ben and working out of the country. If you'd like, send me some 6.5X47 cases, I'll prep 'em and drop 'em in the mail back to you. -Al

P.S. For shortening the excess neck length on 308W cases, a Dremel tool with a fiberglass reinforced cutting wheel works great to take the bulk off.

 

[Bnhpr]

I might have a bit of experience with this...

Ben, there is only around .015 difference in the case head-datum line measurement between a 6.5X47 Lapua case and your .165 shortened 308W case....the 6.5X47 case being the shorter of the two.

Which is why I suggested the 1.850 case length based on the .165 short 308W back when you started this project. You can shorten the 308 Lapua case or use the 6.5X47 Lapua cases. This isn't exactly new ground for HBR shooters......

There's no need to make using the 6.5X47 case in this chamber any harder than need be. Just expand 'em to .30 with a tapered expander like the Redding #16307, neck turn, anneal, use a stiff load of H322 or similar fast burning powder, seat a 125 TNT .025 'jammed', lightly wipe the cases with some WD40....and fire 'em. The shoulder will pop foward and out will roll a very nicely fireformed case that will fit your chamber exactly. No need for a seperate fireform barrel, etc, etc. By the time you get done fiddling with all of that you could have fireformed all your cases in the barrel they're going to be used in and saved a lot of time and monkey motion.

After you fire 'em the first time, then you can uniform the primer pockets and debur the flash holes. You'll need to experiment with flash hole size anyway for best results with this case.

I know you're pressed for time, Ben and working out of the country. If you'd like, send me some 6.5X47 cases, I'll prep 'em and drop 'em in the mail back to you. -Al

P.S. For shortening the excess neck length on 308W cases, a Dremel tool with a fiberglass reinforced cutting wheel works great to take the bulk off.

Al,

That is a generous offer, and thank you, but I should probably learn to do the prep myself.... Your answering my questions has been invaluable and I appreciate it.

I've got 6.5x47 brass headed to Maine already.

I need to make an annealing tool, or is there a good one to buy?

Ben