Carbon Ring

Chino I am hoping that by your post you have a bore scope.
I am curious have you ever tried it with another chemical say just plain alcohol or oil of some sort to find out if its just the brush that actually works on that or is the chemical really that important.
Just curious.
 
Yes, Vern, I do own a borescope. I have not tried what you described but you brought up a good point that I will try in the future. Now I'm curious. It may be a week or so before I'm able to try but I'll post when I do.
 
Thanks Chino.
If you have more than one gun to try it on you might also try a nylon brush too
 
bill larson said:
carbon is very hard..... rite next to diamond.........to lap it out.... flitz....iosso...J-B... etc. (are designed to remove metal ).....one would need a diamond abrasive.Carbon however.....can be chemically removed.
I use GM Top Engine Cleaner.
bill larson
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Where can I get GM Top Engine cleaner?
 
Since nobody else has said it...... no "carbon" is not "very hard!"

Charcoal is carbon, graphite is carbon, we are carbon-based life forms. The fact that diamond is a form of carbon doesn't mean that soot is as "hard" somehow as diamond.

Now, that said I do agree that the form of carbon that's left by burning powder is tough but IMO the fact that I can wipe it off my casenecks with some solvents while others won't touch it seems to indicate to me that it's susceptible to certain solvents.

al
 
I have noticed that a barrel will clean much better if done while it is still warm from firing. For example the carbon on a case neck will wipe off easily if done right after firing but if you wait until it is cold it comes off much harder.
So, my question is has anyone tried heat in the cleaning process of removing carbon? Or cleaning in general.
 
Vern,
I have tried nylon brushes and they are not as effective as bronze bristels. If you don't have a borescope, and are a serious shooter, it is a valuable tool. It has taught me that my previous cleaning technique was far too rigorous and a squeakly clean bright barrel is not really necessary. Keeping the carbon down and the copper minimized is the key. When one or the other begins to build, you can attack the specific problem as opposed to going overboard during every cleaning regime. Observing the efficacy of various solvents and technique are able to be observed and rated.
 
Del Martin said:
I have noticed that a barrel will clean much better if done while it is still warm from firing. For example the carbon on a case neck will wipe off easily if done right after firing but if you wait until it is cold it comes off much harder.
So, my question is has anyone tried heat in the cleaning process of removing carbon? Or cleaning in general.
Click to expand...

Del, I clean warm pretty much always and tell my clients to do so with their rifles. I can only speak for about 25 barrels but IMO it is possible to keep throats clean using only patches and the eye-watering red solvent. I make my own "bore guides" using the front half of a fired case and try to go no more than 25-35rds between cleanings. Borescoping shows only alligatoring lines and sometimes a smear in the grooves.

I don't know if the heat is what makes a difference but I started doing this in the varmint patch because "waiting 'til later to clean" became just too much a pita.

IMO it's "get on it, STAY on it and don't lose it..."

al
 
My gun always shoots better with at least 10 rounds through it (factory Savage) so I don't clean it between relays. Usually just wait till I get home. Got a shoot on the 12th and plan on trying this right after the last relay. It ought to be good and hot.
 
Really interesting discovery

I posted some test results I did on another thread last month I think. Ill probably repost this there too.
I have been looking for something to dissolve carbon better than what we currently have.
I tested some various chemicals on spent primers. I was not impressed with the results.

Yesterday I was running some cases through the sonic cleaner and had just added soap.
After a few cycles I noticed the primer pockets and necks were not getting clean like usual so I wondered what I had forgotten. Then I remembered that I usually add a couple of table spoons of vinegar.
I stopped it and added vinegar and ran 2 more 8 min cycles and they were clean.

I started trying to do some more research and found some guys cleaning pistons with regular bottled ammonia. I figured I would give the primers another try. Not bad had some reactions. Took a qtip to a primer and most of the carbon just wiped away.
Then I remembered the vinegar from yesterday and decided to try that after just a few minutes I pulled a primer and noticed a big difference. I took a qtip to it and wow all the carbon was gone and it was even shinny.
Just wanting to make sure it was not a fluke (though I know this has not been a viable scientific test) I tried water. Needless to say it didnt do anything.

I think Ill try the vinegar on a few more tests and see how that works.
Then I think I need to find some stronger vinegar maybe.
I know how to turn it into a gel.

If anyone else has tried this let me know.
 
The probable active ingredient in the vinegar is acetic acid. If you want to work with a higher concentration, find a photo store that still stocks chemicals for old fashioned film type B&W photography, and look for glacial acetic acid. Just remember when you are diluting it, add it to the water, not the other way around, and always wear eye protection. Rubber gloves are a really good idea as well.
 
after reading tony boyer's book and getting my borescope, i looked in my barrels. OMG! carbon rings in all! i got brushes made by hoppes that look like brass but are really very stiff nylon or equivalent. put a little jb/kroil and using an aluminum rod in my b&d variable speed drill, inserted brush into neck portion of chamber and spun it slowly with a little of in and out motion. remove it and patched neck clean. borescope showed pieces of the "carbon ring" still present. repeating the process resulted in a neck CLEAN and shiney! now, i do this after every shooting session and the ring comes out quickly. a high enough temperature and enough pressure will convert carbon into diamonds. we might be seeing carbon baked into some form of precursor(chuckle). carbon rings are real and do cause rel problems with accuracy.
 
OK, finally some success. After the last relay in yesterdays shoot I ran a couple of patches soaked with KG1 carbon remover down the barrels on each gun while they where good and hot. Then left one soaked in the throat for the ride home and over night. Today I cleaned as usual but also scrubbed with JB Bore Compound and seemed to get it out. Not sure if I got all of it , but No marks on bullets after chambering a round. First definite progress I've seen yet!
 
As a guy who works on cars for a living I can tell you that GM top engine cleaner does work great on engines- I have yet to try it on my barrel's carbon ring but after this thread I might. It works on engines with the engine running so it has heat & pressure to help it work.

One other thought though. Another car thing that works epic on cleaning engine parts, when they are torn down, is carb cleaner. I don't mean the stuff in the aresol can, rather I mean the stuff that comes in the gallon pail with the strainer. It's a dark, thick fluid. For example you can take the nastiest valves, drop them in the bucket, come back in a day or two & voila the carbon just melted off- and that is some hard stuff. This thread makes me think that this stuff on a brush might be a good thing to try.
 
i am currently trying a new approach to the carbon ring problem. a recent article in varmint hunter's mag was about coating the throat and bore with a ceramic "solution". fired rounds are to "cure" the ceramic particles and reduce the adhesion of the products of powder sublimation, thereby reducing the time spent cleaning. this product was or is used by the military to coat automatic weapons. very little actual info re use in our guns. i bought a kit(the ceramic solution and denatured alcohol) an have coated several barrels...one a 22-250 pretty shot out. the latter shot a very small group and is borderline cleaning easier. one of my copper fouling 6 brx does seem to clean quicker and the copper is just about nonexistent. as advised, i coated the portion of the chamber just in front of the case where the ring forms and am encouraged in that i cleaned the ring by just hand twisting a stiff nylon brush with bore cleaner. previously, i would have to spin the brush with jb/kroil and repeat several times. one user states that once coated you should not, or have to. use a bronze brush of abrasive cleaner. it sound as if the ceramic particles when heated to 5000+ deg and 50,000+psi "cure" into a glass-like coating? interesting and an ongoing process. further experience will be reported.
 
Carbon can get extremely hard

alinwa said:
Since nobody else has said it...... no "carbon" is not "very hard!"

Charcoal is carbon, graphite is carbon, we are carbon-based life forms. The fact that diamond is a form of carbon doesn't mean that soot is as "hard" somehow as diamond.

Now, that said I do agree that the form of carbon that's left by burning powder is tough but IMO the fact that I can wipe it off my casenecks with some solvents while others won't touch it seems to indicate to me that it's susceptible to certain solvents.

al
Click to expand...

The constant pressure and heat that the throat is subjected to is incredible. Upwards of 50,000 C.U.P pressure. Diamonds are created under intense heat and pressure. The reason it gets so hard to remove is because it is polished smooth, and the solvents need greater time to penetrate the surface. For those who have had to clean an M-4 after sustained fire in combat or on the range, the bolt carrier group gets baked with this stuff - especially the bolt. This is why they make commercial carbon removing tools that cut it away. The other reason is because we do not want to just scrub our precision rifle barrels like a rusted nut on a bolt.
 
rcw3 said:
I find the Hodgdon extreme powders are most prone to create a carbon ring build up,(snip)
Click to expand...

I've had this same thought about Hodgdon powders. Has anyone else had enough experience with Hodgdon to also share this opinion? I'm thinking primarily of Varget in a fairly new .223 that I've borescoped and definitely have a ring in it. Haven't tackled it yet but have been following this topic closely. Unlike kdvarmint who's not about to give Varget up I am and have been working with several other powders with good luck in the .223.
 
I shoot a tight necked 243 Ackley Imp. and get the dreaded carbon ring...I brush a lightly spooled brush with steel wool turned soaked w/ bore solvent by hand in the throat area and it gets rid of it... however it always comes back... I'm shooting a warm load of AA 2700 and H-414
 
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