carbon build up in 30 BR barrel
- Thread starter reelxprs
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T
Texas Plinker
Guest
Every once in a while I insert a Sinclair Chamber Plug and the with the rifle sitting upright I fill the barrel with Bore Tech C4 Carbon Remover. I usually let it soak 12 to 24 hours, sometimes longer and then do a regular cleaning, usually starting with a stiff nylon brush. I have always been amazed at how black the first patch through the barrel is. I asked the technician at Bore Tech if it was harmful to soak the barrel for an extended amount of time and he said there was no time limit and that they had some barrels in a test tank that have been soaking for a couple of years and they check them out every so often and have yet to find any damage to a barrel.
Lee Martin
Active member
Good information guys. I can't speak to competitive barrels in anything over 6mm. Our 222s and 6 BR, plus soon to be PPC, get cleaned every 15 - 20 shots. Nothing too aggressive, just Kroil and Butch's (patches and bronze brush). We have a borescope and rountinely check them when swapped out. Material carbon build-up just hasn't been a problem (and we've used multiple barrel makes and powders in these guns). That said, if I pushed the round count higher it may be a differnent story.
I can't offer hard set rules, simply what I've found in shooting BR rigs over 26 years.
-Lee
www.singleactions.com
I can't offer hard set rules, simply what I've found in shooting BR rigs over 26 years.
-Lee
www.singleactions.com
shootsteady
Member
old thread but.....
Steel bore brushes are made to clean, well, bores. I use them when I have carbon build up. I don't go crazy, just watch as I brush and not go to far. A few passes with hoppes and it's gone.
Steel bore brushes are made to clean, well, bores. I use them when I have carbon build up. I don't go crazy, just watch as I brush and not go to far. A few passes with hoppes and it's gone.
Sooo Uhhthink...... you gonna' just STAND THERE? Aren't you or one of your alter egos in charge now? You're already in this exchange.....You gonna' just nod and bob while BRC trumpets the truth to the world that a steel brush and Hoppes is the answer to carbon buildup? After all, the man's short-stroking it, he's pulling out, ie "only putting the tip in"..... what could possibly go wrong?
"NOT speaking for BRC here, but Ol' Anilwa disagrees with this method
jus'sayin
OliveOil
Active member
I will agree the steel brush helps me to get rid of wad fouling in my chrome lined 12 gauge barrel. All in all, chrome layer is much harder than the steel brush which anyway I doubt to be steel and guess is iron wire.
Anyway I will never run something as hard or harder than the barrel material inside any barrel.
I have used the steel wool on bronze brush to remove ... lead fouling from a GLOCK barrel (nitrated bore). Never used it and never will on my GoldCup or wife's Para.
I use no abrasive paste in barrels, just JB. My thinking is that abrasive pastes are for "grit masters", lapping at barrel makers.
I am a firm believer in the bronze brush to scratch that carbon deposit just at the angle of the rifling. A patch can't apply any effort in that location, it is an angle. Solvent can go, bronze brush bristles can go there and apply effort to scratch the carbon deposit.
Just my opinion, maybe wrong, but I have some doubt about the plastic brush bristles ability to scratch the dirt out at rifling angle. Bristles are bigger, softer than bronze. Made some double cleaning trials on 30 HBR brl, was not convinced by the result.
Since that, I only use the plastic brush to carry amonia+H2O2 doped Ed's Red when I have a doubt on copper building (the bronze brush being eaten alive in less than a yardage, even if dump in a water keg in between cleaning).
I am always atonished to see how efficient solvents can be to remove carbon fouling. I recently gave Ed's Red a try at "just fired" case neck cleaning. Impressive result. At cleaning a BR brl after a match, second wet patch comes out clean.
I love Ed's Red. Price, efficacy, calcium sulfonate. I am using it to maintain all my barrels, includind BR, for almost 20 years, since we had all that ecoloshxixt which makes solvent export from the US impossible. Have been using Sinclair's in the 90's, then Montana Xtreme and Butch's for a decade before Planet Care Hysteria. So my switch to Ed's Red.
Recently, the wife had a batch of old cotton bed sheets she wanted to trash. The material is thinner that our usual cleaning patch, has less density, so I made some test cleaning a 30 brl with a batch of 1" x 4" patch cut in the old bed sheets.
It can carry much more solvent than our usual patch. I noticed I was catching much more carbon fouling using these, probably because that patch folds all along the cleaning jag (and even further back), so every jag's pressure rings are being effective and wet.
The first patch after brushing comes out much more "clean" than when I was using regular cleaning patches before brushing, which let me think I remove much more crud at wet patches step before brushing.
I will add I am not at ease with not cleaning during a yardage or a competition. Many many years ago, I was told by one of my mentor of a microscopic picture exposed at Hart. That was a barrrel cut picture, clearly putting in evidence numerous deposits at rifling angle, thin successive layers of carbon and copper.
That cumulative deposit of carbon after each shot makes sense to me. Each further shot will compress the existing deposit and add some more material. Maybe some barrels or most barrels keep high accuracy for a while, but for sure, they must be MUCH harder to clean.
Anyway I will never run something as hard or harder than the barrel material inside any barrel.
I have used the steel wool on bronze brush to remove ... lead fouling from a GLOCK barrel (nitrated bore). Never used it and never will on my GoldCup or wife's Para.
I use no abrasive paste in barrels, just JB. My thinking is that abrasive pastes are for "grit masters", lapping at barrel makers.
I am a firm believer in the bronze brush to scratch that carbon deposit just at the angle of the rifling. A patch can't apply any effort in that location, it is an angle. Solvent can go, bronze brush bristles can go there and apply effort to scratch the carbon deposit.
Just my opinion, maybe wrong, but I have some doubt about the plastic brush bristles ability to scratch the dirt out at rifling angle. Bristles are bigger, softer than bronze. Made some double cleaning trials on 30 HBR brl, was not convinced by the result.
Since that, I only use the plastic brush to carry amonia+H2O2 doped Ed's Red when I have a doubt on copper building (the bronze brush being eaten alive in less than a yardage, even if dump in a water keg in between cleaning).
I am always atonished to see how efficient solvents can be to remove carbon fouling. I recently gave Ed's Red a try at "just fired" case neck cleaning. Impressive result. At cleaning a BR brl after a match, second wet patch comes out clean.
I love Ed's Red. Price, efficacy, calcium sulfonate. I am using it to maintain all my barrels, includind BR, for almost 20 years, since we had all that ecoloshxixt which makes solvent export from the US impossible. Have been using Sinclair's in the 90's, then Montana Xtreme and Butch's for a decade before Planet Care Hysteria. So my switch to Ed's Red.
Recently, the wife had a batch of old cotton bed sheets she wanted to trash. The material is thinner that our usual cleaning patch, has less density, so I made some test cleaning a 30 brl with a batch of 1" x 4" patch cut in the old bed sheets.
It can carry much more solvent than our usual patch. I noticed I was catching much more carbon fouling using these, probably because that patch folds all along the cleaning jag (and even further back), so every jag's pressure rings are being effective and wet.
The first patch after brushing comes out much more "clean" than when I was using regular cleaning patches before brushing, which let me think I remove much more crud at wet patches step before brushing.
I will add I am not at ease with not cleaning during a yardage or a competition. Many many years ago, I was told by one of my mentor of a microscopic picture exposed at Hart. That was a barrrel cut picture, clearly putting in evidence numerous deposits at rifling angle, thin successive layers of carbon and copper.
That cumulative deposit of carbon after each shot makes sense to me. Each further shot will compress the existing deposit and add some more material. Maybe some barrels or most barrels keep high accuracy for a while, but for sure, they must be MUCH harder to clean.
The carbon ring is left over solvent and carbon in the chamber after cleaning. It is trapped between the neck and shoulder of the chamber by the O-ring of the bore guide. When a new round is closed in chamber, the liquid is pushed around the chamber and stops at the chamber neck of the case. Some goes into the bore.
It gets cooked. Forms time after time after time. Most folks put a chamber mop with a patch on it into the chamber. If that patch does not come out dirty. Your chamber is still wet. This can be seen with a bore scope also. That's how I found it.
Cheap borescope plugs into any computer or phone. Win 10 has a camera program. Also used for the camera/skye mode.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07TTQF24F/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1
I get this out with a plane bore mop. It comes out dirty. I wash it off with Break Kleene in the green can. Stores store have big cans of the stuff...
i disagree with the location and how it gets there.
by design there is a gap from the end of the case mouth and where the rifling begins.
it can be seen in any chamber drawing.
easily 15 thou sometimes more. this gap is where the ring forms when you fire the rifle.
a great place to grow a carbon ring
i spec all my reamers with .005-.007 gap....much less area to grow a carbon ring
i clean for carbon at the start of cleaning
( i trim to length on every reload)
by design there is a gap from the end of the case mouth and where the rifling begins.
it can be seen in any chamber drawing.
easily 15 thou sometimes more. this gap is where the ring forms when you fire the rifle.
a great place to grow a carbon ring
i spec all my reamers with .005-.007 gap....much less area to grow a carbon ring
i clean for carbon at the start of cleaning
( i trim to length on every reload)
Pete Wass
Well-known member
I've learned a lot
and have been wrong on a lot of things I have said previously. I kept trying to find faster and faster ways to clean the carbon from my barrels. I used Rem Clean on a rimfire barrel and after a few cleanings, it quit shooting. I think this goes to what Frank said way back on polishing. so, I tried the Rem Clean again in my CF barrels using a worn out brush and the 000 Steel wool. Just a few strokes and the barrel is spotless. What I have noticed is the Free bore, creeps faster so that has to mean the grit in the Rem Clean is scouring off metal. The barrels still shoot great tiny groups but one has to pay attention to the creeping free bore.
I do use Wipeout and find it to be a great carbon cleaner. Isn't as instant as the RemClean but it does take carbon out readily. So yeah, one can ruin barrels by cleaning too aggressively. There is a YouTube of a well known shooter cleaning his barrels with a Nylon brush on a cleaning rod driven by an electric drill. He states that that method does not hut his barrels and has had barrel makers check and then say he hadn't damaged his barrels. So, I clean my 30 barrels now after a match, around 80 rounds most matches and the .22RF,s well, they are a different animal. Some barrels don't mind being dirty and some want to be cleaned, from what I've seen so far.
and have been wrong on a lot of things I have said previously. I kept trying to find faster and faster ways to clean the carbon from my barrels. I used Rem Clean on a rimfire barrel and after a few cleanings, it quit shooting. I think this goes to what Frank said way back on polishing. so, I tried the Rem Clean again in my CF barrels using a worn out brush and the 000 Steel wool. Just a few strokes and the barrel is spotless. What I have noticed is the Free bore, creeps faster so that has to mean the grit in the Rem Clean is scouring off metal. The barrels still shoot great tiny groups but one has to pay attention to the creeping free bore.
I do use Wipeout and find it to be a great carbon cleaner. Isn't as instant as the RemClean but it does take carbon out readily. So yeah, one can ruin barrels by cleaning too aggressively. There is a YouTube of a well known shooter cleaning his barrels with a Nylon brush on a cleaning rod driven by an electric drill. He states that that method does not hut his barrels and has had barrel makers check and then say he hadn't damaged his barrels. So, I clean my 30 barrels now after a match, around 80 rounds most matches and the .22RF,s well, they are a different animal. Some barrels don't mind being dirty and some want to be cleaned, from what I've seen so far.
Well, if anybody can invent a solvent to dissolve carbon then they would be extremely rich.
Many of these over-hyped 'witches brews' claim such abilities, yet they are just a panacea (also a good earner) and a lubricant for a good old fashioned mechanical bore brush and a bit of elbow grease. Nylon or brass is your choice!
Just type 'is it possible to dissolve carbon ?' into any search engine and make your own decision.
* doggie *
Many of these over-hyped 'witches brews' claim such abilities, yet they are just a panacea (also a good earner) and a lubricant for a good old fashioned mechanical bore brush and a bit of elbow grease. Nylon or brass is your choice!
Just type 'is it possible to dissolve carbon ?' into any search engine and make your own decision.
* doggie *
there were excellent carbon cleaners on the market until kalifornia started banning "potential" cancer causes. no company wants to sell a product to only 49 states.
i was lucky to catch several containers of real automotive top end cleaners before they went away.
i do not use metalic brushes in my bores,
yes lou cleans with a drill motor. i have seen it many times. he just won the 29 palms 1000 yard match, winning both days and the overall..
do what makes you feel confident in your gear.
i was lucky to catch several containers of real automotive top end cleaners before they went away.
i do not use metalic brushes in my bores,
yes lou cleans with a drill motor. i have seen it many times. he just won the 29 palms 1000 yard match, winning both days and the overall..
do what makes you feel confident in your gear.
shootsteady
Member
Alot of people just say things but doesn't necessarily mean anything, other than you said it.
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pete and all
THE ANSWER IS TO START EVERY CLEANING WITH CARBON REMOVAL.
carbon aint new, people who shoot, esp competition, should be doing carbon cleaning...carbon ring should be a thing of the past.
i use chemicals to clean in 100/200 td br matches...
THE ANSWER IS TO START EVERY CLEANING WITH CARBON REMOVAL.
carbon aint new, people who shoot, esp competition, should be doing carbon cleaning...carbon ring should be a thing of the past.
i use chemicals to clean in 100/200 td br matches...
shootsteady
Member
Olive Oil
Just be careful and watch what you're doing. Done it numerous times and my rifles shoot well, very well at that. Thing about how button rifling is installed, so saying it's not good for the bore is just plain nonsense. I don't make it common practice coz it's not needed, just rifles I acquire that been neglected.
Just be careful and watch what you're doing. Done it numerous times and my rifles shoot well, very well at that. Thing about how button rifling is installed, so saying it's not good for the bore is just plain nonsense. I don't make it common practice coz it's not needed, just rifles I acquire that been neglected.
OliveOil
Active member
Sorry to say, with all due respect, that I do not agree.
First, a rifling button does match every area in the lands and grooves almost perfectly. But anyway,
Whatever you carry under load in that barrel and how ever you carry it inside that barrel, should it contains something harder than the barrel steel, and whatever the size of the ""harder than steel"" particles, and whatever the amount of care applied, the Op IS to remove steel and or scratch the barrel.
I have been polishing chrome lined and hard-thick anodized alumina air cylinders for years, so experience makes me definitely let this kind of operation to the "grit masters" at the barrel maker shop.
Except for some WW2 barrels looking just as freshly ploughed, but that's a different story.
As far as I can remember, the "grit masters" are using cast lead laps matching individual barrel's land/grooves as close as it is possible, have them loaded with successive abrasives of the right size AND SIZE DISTRIBUTION, lap the surface and create the inside cone of the barrel adjusting the number of strokes here and there.
Using a patch carried by a jag can obviously not apply the same amount of pressure on lands and grooves, and will apply for sure ZERO pressure where lands meet grooves, with everything possible in between.
Aka the Op will lap mostly at the center of lands, less at center of grooves and barely not where it comes to land/groove ""border"", where carbon is the most tricky to remove.
My mind is that it is very important to use, if needed, an abrasive paste with particles harder than copper, harder than carbon, but softer than steel. The pumice in JB is just that. And you just can't have it carried under the same pressure/load in every place (lands, grooves) of that barrel.
In between Flitz and Iosso, one is just on hardness edge and the other behaves like a steel abrasive, I never used them, can't remember which is what. Clearly remember competitors shooting numerous sighters after using one of the twos.
Personally, I own one small jar of JB since the 90's. Used almost 2/3 of it.
Anyway, bench rest is a free country.
shootsteady
Member
I don’t see any scratches in my barrels, so l cant go along with you. A 10 power maginifier is clear enough to not see any damage at the crown. And you have to realize the brush isn’t touching the bore either, so what’s the problem? If You want to over analyze things be my guest. I had a bore that was badly pitted and shot the same as a pristine barrel.
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Pete Wass
Well-known member
If one looks
In a new barrel with something they can see inside it with, like a bore scope, they will see straight scratch marks the lapping compound made. My memory sez they use 150 grit to lap barrels before they sell them. Those scratches don't last forever, however. The best Group Shooter ever to live said the first 600 shots through a barrel are the best ones. Perhaps it has something to do with those straight scratches??? Perhaps one could periodically cast a lap , apply the 150 and put the "New" back in they barrel
Pete
In a new barrel with something they can see inside it with, like a bore scope, they will see straight scratch marks the lapping compound made. My memory sez they use 150 grit to lap barrels before they sell them. Those scratches don't last forever, however. The best Group Shooter ever to live said the first 600 shots through a barrel are the best ones. Perhaps it has something to do with those straight scratches??? Perhaps one could periodically cast a lap , apply the 150 and put the "New" back in they barrel
Pete