Bullet Seating

That's very interesting, EKP. I have a couple of law men in my family tree. I'm pretty sure that there are a couple of moonshiners, too, though.

Greg J. "Ohioan by residence. Tennessee Volunteer by birth and Grace of God".
 
On measuring loaded rounds -

The only correct way to measure a loaded round and get any kind of an accurate reading is to measure from the butt of the case to the position on the ogive slope that will touch the lands. A couple of reasons for this is bullets vary in length, both in their jacket and the length of the ogive slope, if you will. Some bullets are remarkably similar and some are not very similar at all. Most of the seating stems we use touch the bullet quite high up on the ogive slope and quite far away from where the bullet will engage the lands. With the variation of of ogive slopes, erratic OAL's will ensue.

I have come to believe that lots of bullets that don't shoot well are those that have a lot of variation in the length of the ogive slope. Once one measures and segregates them, accuarcy returns. Ergo, loading random bullets from the box they were shipped in is inviting loss of accuracy. For those who jam hard, no proble, the situation has resolved itself, you only need to find a charge that makes it work.

Speaking of 30 Cal bullets now: some of the machine made bullets will work as well as hand made bullets as long as they are segregated by ogive slope length so they can be loaded accurately. I have won a number of matches usoing TBT 125's. I have not tried smaller TNT's but see no reason they wouldn't do the same. Do I also use Custom bullets, yes I do and have all the while I have been shooting thinking I probably should try to make the best ammo I can, not being a very good shooter, in general. I am having more and more trouble reading windflags as the years go by.
 
ekp,

The exercises that you are being lead through are exactly the ones I was in the process of discovering about 7-8 years ago... that was how I found competitive short-range group shooting, and I've been hooked every since. Many barrels and thousands of rounds later, I'm still learning little tweaks to get the bullets to hang together.

Everyone has a strategy, here's mine...

I want to know a couple of numbers... first, what is the maximum seating depth (jam) before the rifling starts doing it's own seating. Second, what is the minimum depth when the bullet is no longer touching the lands at all. Be careful when you hear someone describing the seating depth of their their pet load, since some people talk "jam-minus", and some talk "touch-plus". Additionally, the measurements can be quite different for any bullets produced on different dies or even different lot numbers. They can also change with barrel wear, so it is something I check quite frequently (almost every match throughout the shooting season).

First, for a particular bullet, I like to know the max length that it can be seated out... just seat a bullet a little long in a FL resized case (no powder or primer please) with your normal neck tension, close the bolt on it (I do that step twice), then extract it. If your tension is too heavy (or light) and the bullet sticks, then start with the bullet closer to the final seating depth (within say .005) It should move back enough to measure, but not enough to stick. I will usually leave this cartridge in the box of bullets as a reference that I can go back to. I loosen the set screw on my micrometer-topped seater and gently spin it down on the reference cartridge. The seater top will spin with the micrometer top until the stem mouth contacts the bullet. This becomes my the "jam" length.

The second number takes a little more "feel". Remove the firing pin assembly from the bolt (required -- you can't feel the lands with the cocking spring in the system). Prepare a second case and bullet at max jam length and start increasing the seating depth a couple thousands at a time, chamber the round and "feeling" the bullet twist against the rifling lands. On my competition gun, usually somewhere between .025 and .035 off the jam length, the feel of the bolt drop has a definite change and I know that I have found the length where the bullet is no longer in the rifling. Seated any deeper and the bullet will be "jumping" to the lands. Other methods for finding this involve polishing the bullet and looking for rifling marks, but I learned this one from Jack Neary and I think the bolt feel is more reliable and repeatable.

When I'm working up a load for a new barrel, testing a lot of bullets, or practicing before a match, I like to go through a sequence of light-to-heavy powder charges (usually about .3 gr apart) at the jam length with 3-shot groups, looking for nodes that show some promise. Then picking the best-grouping charges, I try to "fine-tune" it by trying testing charges at, just above (.1gr), and just below (.1gr) with seating depth increased by .005, .010, .015, and sometimes .020". The holy grail is a charge/depth combination that does not "blow up" with the minor variations. The errors of all the components of our systems accumulate, and the real gem is a load that is both accurate and error-tolerant.

The key is to find what the gun likes and not be too hung up on making the gun shoot what you like. Grandpa used to tell me I could catch more fish with worms than with cheesecake, no matter how much I liked cheesecake better.

Rod
 
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The only correct way to measure a loaded round and get any kind of an accurate reading is to measure from the butt of the case to the position on the ogive slope that will touch the lands. A couple of reasons for this is bullets vary in length, both in their jacket and the length of the ogive slope, if you will. Some bullets are remarkably similar and some are not very similar at all. Most of the seating stems we use touch the bullet quite high up on the ogive slope and quite far away from where the bullet will engage the lands. With the variation of of ogive slopes, erratic OAL's will ensue.

I have come to believe that lots of bullets that don't shoot well are those that have a lot of variation in the length of the ogive slope. Once one measures and segregates them, accuarcy returns. Ergo, loading random bullets from the box they were shipped in is inviting loss of accuracy. For those who jam hard, no proble, the situation has resolved itself, you only need to find a charge that makes it work.

Speaking of 30 Cal bullets now: some of the machine made bullets will work as well as hand made bullets as long as they are segregated by ogive slope length so they can be loaded accurately. I have won a number of matches usoing TBT 125's. I have not tried smaller TNT's but see no reason they wouldn't do the same. Do I also use Custom bullets, yes I do and have all the while I have been shooting thinking I probably should try to make the best ammo I can, not being a very good shooter, in general. I am having more and more trouble reading windflags as the years go by.

I shoot mostly @ 100 yds and I have found to get the right seating depth and still feed from my 98's I needed to go to a flat base RN bullet. I was able to get RN in 270 from Hawk. They should work well @ 100. I know they are not sexy but they feed beutifully and these are my hunting rifles. I think everyone would like their hunting rifles to perfom like a benchrest.
 
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Bullet Seating, Wilson seater

I have experience a difference in seating depth even using a Wilsons Seating die. After determining and setting my depth I find that subsequent cartridges can vary +/- .005. I have found more accurate results by seating the bullets in two steps with the final step the finish depth I desire. Is this because of different neck tensions and kinetic energy when seating in one step? Any suggestions? In the same vein I am undecided in the value of using a factory crimp die. I have heard arguments on both sides of the issue.

thnks
What are you measuring exactly?? Me thinks you need to be most concerned with the distance between the ogives and the lands and this will of course differ depending upon bullet shape. I've used Wilsons for years have found them be excellent seaters. Start with an overall cartidge length with the lands in contact with the bullet ogive and back off from there. Accuracy in many rifles is excellent at this length, but pressures may not allow for anything close to max loads, but its always a good starting point.

F. Prefect
 
Pm 4 u

ekp, Sent you a PM.
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