Bullet Making (originally owned by Stephen Perry)

BR Bullet Making--Finishing the Bullets

Core Seating
Now that we have our cores made and cleaned the next step is core seating.
Core seating is a very important step in bullet making, in my estimation the most important step. For core seating you need to choose a core seating plug that under the pressure of core seating will leave a minimum of bleed-by when the punch exerts maximum pressure on the core. You choose a punch that enters the jacket without scraping the jacket walls and bleed-by is minimum. Minimum means you see a a tiny crater left on the core after core seating. It's best if you are starting bullet making to let your Mentor help you pick a punch diameter. Then if you can afford it buy 2 more punches one .0005 over and one .0005 under the diameter you chose. Having 3 punches can help you later if you switch lots of jackets and need a different punch for the new lot. Check the jacket diameter after you seat a couple cores to get the max diameter on a seated core below the lead line. Be careful in seeking max diameter on core seating. You can't exceed the core seating die internal diameter, if you try you could rupture your die. I go for the small crater look after I core seat. I like my measurement to be .243 measured on the seated core measured below the lead line above the above base of the base of the jacket, on the shank. Another problem comes if you do not seat the core secure into the jacket. A loose core in a jacket will not give BR quality bullets. That is why you measure the cored jacket to get the maximum diameter.

I use jacket stuffing boards to get ready for core seating. The boards I use are for 200 jackets each board allows me to quickly line up 200 jackets and add 200 cores. When I didn't have the boards I stuffed one core into one jacket one at a time and then core seated them. You can see the one at a time method of stuffing cores in jackets though it works as well as using boards is a slow process.

Core seating is done by feel. All your cores should feel the same as they are seated. If you get one that goes easier than the others dump that one if one goes in stiffer dump that one. Once all the cores are seated in jackets I put them in a 4 qt jar with lid.

Now this where some new bullet makers get screwed up. You need to lube your cored jackets before you point up your bullets. Too much lube can deform your bullet. Too little lube can allow them to stick in your die. Inconsitent lube meaning too much one time not enough another can give different final dimensions on bullets. Lube controls the final dimensions on bullets. Bullets react -hydraulic action- in the point up die to lube amount on the bullet. Bullets jackets lubed the same from lot to lot is what you want in making BR quality bullets. I use the same measured amount of lube for each same size lot of bullets each time. My lube is 3 parts anhydrous lanolin 1 part vaseline heat the two together and store away for future use. Ask around for other lubes used.

I place the lube on all 4 sides of my jar and roll the jackets for 1/2 hr. This allows all the jackets to get an equal coating of lube. After I'm finished I place my cored jackets back into my bulletboards and I'm ready to point up or finish my bullets.

Pointing-up Bullets
Now I rotate over to my last RCBS Press set up for finishing the bullet or as allot of bullet makers call it pointing-up your cored jackets to make the finished bullet. This is the third die for the other two being the core making die and the core seating die.

There are several ways of starting the pointing up step. Everybody has their favorite. My way of starting is to lube up two cored jackets already lubed with a small amount of lube, use fingers, and run them into your die. Then I run 10 from my bottle rolled jackets into my die and set these bullets aside, the warm up bullets are used in my varmint guns. Adding the 2 juiced bullets bullets at the beginning gives my dies the lube needed to get ready for a point-up run. The next 10 bullets starts to warm up the dies. I point-up at a rapid pace this warms up the dies and keeps them warm, makes better bullets if the dies stay warm. I adjust the die so the point on the bullet does not enter the ejector pin hole in the point up die. I can point-up 500 bullets in about hr. Measure your finished bullets after point up. I measure the shank just ahead of the pressure ring. And at the pressure ring. My bullets measure .2430 on the shank and .2433 at the pressure ring.

Extra Stuff
Once I finish my bullets I store them in plastic boxes I buy at the 99 cent store. Whatever way you choose to store bullets make sure they are in clean dry containers. Put labels on the boxes similar to the records you keep. I leave my lube on the bullets after pointing-up. I do this because I don't believe in shooting dry bullets down a dry BR barrel. Measuring instruments like a 1/10 mik a and weighing scale are necessary for BR bullet making.

Keep records when making bullets. Items to record are jacket weights from lot to lot. Core weights, you control your bullet weight by the weight of the cores you make. Equipment used, some bullet makers have several different point-up dies for making bullets with different ogives and they might have favorite point-up dies they want to use. Different recordings for equipment means different lots of bullets. Date made, bullet weight, and lot number of jackets used.

BR Bullet Making is a labor intensive game and a financial investment that most stay away from. But if done at a slow pace one press one set of dies buying used you can get started affordably. I have carbide dies in 22 and 6 but to me there is nothing wrong with steel dies. You can buy new set of steel bullet making dies for less than you buy a used set of carbide dies. If taken care your steel dies dies will last your lifetime. Carbide dies are what most manufacturers sell but in reality they are more for production/high volume whereas the guy who makes bullets for himself only is well served with steel dies at a lot lower price.

One last thing I mentioned earlier there are some good material you can read on BR Bullet Making. In BR Central under the Articles and FAQ section there is good info on bullet making. The Benchrest Shooting Primer has several articles written by Gentner, Cauterucio and Rorschach. More material on bullet making appears in the Ultimate in Rifle Accuracy and Extreme Rifle Accuracy. The Accurate Rifle by Warren Page has an excellent Mike Walker article on bullet making on p. 101-104. I 've found articles on bullet making in 'Rifle','Handloader', 'Precision Shooting' magazines.

That's all.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR
 
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BR Bullet making

Stephen.
I have never seen a set of Stainless steel dies.
Who is the maker?
I have seen tool steel dies that look like stainless.
Your right on the lube process,
I usually use a tiny bit on my fingers before the point up.
When the lubed seated Jacket comes out of the seater , i found that thats when the jacket has the most uiniform amount of lube on it.
I use a tad more on point up as i said on my fingers.
a little dab will do YA,
The slick carbide usually doesn't need a lot of lube and if too much is used it builds up in the die. Too much lube can cause an undersized bullet.
also rings on the ogive. Clean you dies with a q tip after a secession.
I usually wash my finished bullets also.
Just the way i do it . i don't like greasy bullets.
 
Gerry

I should have said non-carbide dies instead of stainless dies. Larry Blackmon steel dies were what I was referring to. Blackmon makes a fine set of dies that are popular with new bullet makers that want good dies without paying the carbide die prices.

In 2004 and 2006 we had bullet making classes at our San Gabriel BR School. You can see pictures taken and the write up in 6mmBR in the Articles Archived section. Thanks for the comments you added to the BR Bullet Making Thread.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR
 
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BR Bullet making

Good posting with you stephen.
Thanks to everyone who asked questions too.
 
Great Post

Steve great post! I'm not sure I understand everything about core seating. Do any other bullet makers want to explain their method?

Dave
 
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BR Bullet making

Hope I can Help
Core seating. {placing the slug into the jacket , and seating into the jacket.
The jacket The jacket is tapered inside It change size as you get closer to the mouth. You make the core , the core {lead] must be small enough to go into the jacket, with room to spare. The core is Taperd also.
You place the core into a jacket, Place the jacket with core onto a punch , run the handle up into the die. The core expands up and out .
With the proper pressure it will stick to the walls of the die. . When it does this it is at the proper size, A few things can go wrong. wrong punch{small]
The result will be bleed back on the punch This make the lead form an uneven ring around the inside {small punch} Makes the bullet be off balance.
Second [punch too large] . The punch will expand the jacket too much and scrape the inside of the jacket. Copper will build on the punch, the jacket is stressed and or damaged inside. You can tell this by a ring at the line on the outside of the jacket. When you have the proper punch to seat the core and the proper core pressure the measurment at the base and at the lead line
Near the mouth will be the same or a tad under by .0001.
CLear?
 
Buildup on core seat punch

How do you keep lead from building up on the core seat punch?
 
BR Bullet making

When you have the proper punch lead does not build up on it.
The punch is a precise fit to the jacket.
We are talking .0005 here.
Keep a sharp eye for punch wear also. After many bullets they do change a tad.
I have one that needs a set back. Shortened,
 
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dcrunk

As George said use 1% antimony wire . I use 1/2% antimony wire and have never have had the build-up on my core seat punch. Thanks for the comment George.

George if you have anything else you want to add to this bullet making Thread please do. These guys and myself could benefit from your long experience making bullet making dies as well as bullets.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR
 
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Gerry said:
I hear you Al. Yes it's mind numbing.
But then you have total control over the bullet.
I use Pure lead without the antimony. I feel i get a better core and that's the recomended Material that Bahlers book wrote about .
New clean lead uniform in diameter with out any oxidation.
I like the cores that my dies make. The die leaves enough room for the air to Escape from the jacket when seated.
I was talking to Doc Maretzo about this. He said he had xrayed some bullets and found air pockets under the cores on finished bullets.
Yesterday i had a bullet cut in half.
Good news for me NO air pockets.
That was on the 6mm bullets. Next i'll check the 30 cal 8 og I make.
They have been shooting really well. Maybe it's a waste of time but i'm going to cut one anyway.
Click to expand...

Small presses with less leverage and smaller weaker dies are better off using pure lead cores. If you have a large powerful press with bigger diameter dies then harder leads can be used to good effect. As long as the bleed holes in the core swaging die allow the harder alloy to pass without excessive pressure being needed.
 
Gerry said:
Hope I can Help
Core seating. {placing the slug into the jacket , and seating into the jacket.
The jacket The jacket is tapered inside It change size as you get closer to the mouth. You make the core , the core {lead] must be small enough to go into the jacket, with room to spare. The core is Taperd also.
You place the core into a jacket, Place the jacket with core onto a punch , run the handle up into the die. The core expands up and out .
With the proper pressure it will stick to the walls of the die. . When it does this it is at the proper size, A few things can go wrong. wrong punch{small]
The result will be bleed back on the punch This make the lead form an uneven ring around the inside {small punch} Makes the bullet be off balance.
Second [punch too large] . The punch will expand the jacket too much and scrape the inside of the jacket. Copper will build on the punch, the jacket is stressed and or damaged inside. You can tell this by a ring at the line on the outside of the jacket. When you have the proper punch to seat the core and the proper core pressure the measurment at the base and at the lead line
Near the mouth will be the same or a tad under by .0001.
CLear?
Click to expand...

J4 jackets don't seem to have much taper . My cores just go straight down all the way onto the bottom of the jacket and are still a neat fit at the top.
Swaged cores are not tapered not any of mine anyway .
 
As George mentioned, the 1% antimony cores work very well. The .5% antimony also does a fine job. The difference between the build up of the core seating punch between the .5% and the 1% is slight, but repeatable. With the .5% cores it's just ever so slight after seating 2,000 cores..but with the 1% it just doesn't happen, no matter how many cores are seated.

There's a lot more to core seating than just stuffin' a hunk of lead down in the jacket and smashin' it into shape with the seating punch. All else being equal, the 'core' operation...starting with the wire and going up to the seating process... is the most important part of bullet making.

How the jackets are 'loaded', how a certain lot of jackets respond to the core material being used, and how to quantify/measure the the core seating pressure with different jacket lots...these are just a few of the things that the bullet maker needs to have down pat.

Each setup is different, and this stuff doesn't always directly cross over from the guy like me using a set of excellent Blackmon steel dies...to a high volume maker with carbide Neimi or Ulrich dies. But the basics remain the same, even if the the individual approach may vary.

This is where you need to really be in synch with your dies and what they're telling you. Just a little short of Zen.....the yin and yang of slippery lube and hard steel parts. :cool:

Kierkegaard would have made killer bullets......;)
 
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BR Bullet making

Good post Al
I didn't want to get tooo much into the hardness of jackets . thats another
Thing to consider but , not yet not for New guy Yet

That will come with some Press time. So far the quality control that Burger
has given us with the j4 has been excellent. The brill on the other hand has changed but for a new guy starting out. There is not use being too technical. I would like to see alot of others making their own bulets.
They are scared about the thought of making bullets. Really it's not Rocket science, Any one with a brain can do it. It just takes time and the will to make them. Knowing wher to start is the key and misinformation about the
Bullet maing process has scared many away.
 
BR Bullet making

valentine.
My original B+A dies have a taperd core forming die .
My Detsch dies also have a tapered core forming die.
The dies that do not have a taper are the Blackmon dies.
They work upside down also. {dies in the ram}
From the B+A book the core must be tapered. the jacket is tapered.
The core must be undersized also. Air has a chance to get
trapped under the coreif its straight Also an oversized core will will possably trap air under It
Ray Beihler and walt Astles made a point to
Mention this in their book.
I was taliking to Doc Maretzo about bullets , some time back.
He told me he Xrayed bullets and found Air under the cores.
Lucky Doc he has the equipment in his dental office.
 
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valentine,the j4 jackets i have checked have aroundcheck 50 min. angle per side this is a pretty good taper.as for them dropping all the way in that would be according to what dia. they are. gerry,i get to see all types of dies,the b&a 22 and 6's are tapered but the two 30 cal's i have here right now are not.i have not seen a detsch that was tapered but who knows probably one of clarence's older one's.shermans are tapered also. simonson,rorschac,blackmonand detsch's i have here are not.the tapered cores seem to take less pressure to core seat versus a straight core as for size the closer to just fitting in the better. you don't need a tapered core for a tapered jacket straight will work fine. now to really get something started i have used cores that are lets just say WAY oversize that would just start in mouth of jacket and core seated and pointed sectioned bullets had no air trapped and they shot just fine. george
 
BR Bullet making

George your post is interesting
As you know everything is by feel. I would not recomend
a new maker to use a staright core . It may work but then it may not.
My BA is tapered my detsch is tapered and so is my simonson.
I do have one of larry that is straght.
If you can get away with a straight core then something is working right for you.
When making Quality bullets you can't take chances.
I make a few for several peope and i have had no complaints.
Fact some have won trophys last year. I'm really not in business , but i do take a lot of pride in my bullets, I won't take any short cut that would jepordize the quality. Good enough just doesn't cut it for me.
With the zero groups showing up it only shows that having a high
quality control is the key to small groups.
I have heard some people also say weight doesn't matter.
I don't believe that. Weight does matter.
One person said that he shot 66 gr bullets into the same hole as 68 gr bullets. My question was how big was the hole?
Makeing good bullets is one thing making Great bullets is another.
 
gerry, i forgot to include niemi and myself they are both straight. i dont buy the feel thing you are talking about on core seating this is strictly mechanical and should be measured. you will devolop a feel with time but starting out you will get more consistant results by measuring.i have taught alot of people on making bullets and have had good results this way. where would a new shooter buy a tapered squirt die now anyway.i dont know of any commercial BENCHRESTbullet maker that are using tapered cores. george
 
BR Bullet making

george
Opinions vary.
As to the merits of straight vs tapered core the proof would be extensive testing..
I only go by my results.
I must take it then your core are straight and undersized enough to get to the bottom of the jackets. I hope that at least theres a radius on the botton.
I wish Ferris Pindell would join in. i would like to see what he has to say about it. Any way i'm not going to get into a peeing match'
 
Gerry said:
george
Opinions vary.
As to the merits of straight vs tapered core the proof would be extensive testing..
I only go by my results.
I must take it then your core are straight and undersized enough to get to the bottom of the jackets. I hope that at least theres a radius on the botton.
I wish Ferris Pindell would join in. i would like to see what he has to say about it. Any way i'm not going to get into a peeing match'
Click to expand...

Gerry, this thread was started for the rookie bullet maker, evidently you have been doing this for some time and your comments are very welcomed, but please don't hijack this thread for whatever reason. George Ulirch has been making carbide dies and bullets for a while, you?

Please don't piss off a person that has lots of valuable information for us beginers, opposite opinions are welcome, it is OK to agree to disagree. Please let's not piss off the die makers, they have some good mojo. I agree with George, that at first you need to know that 2 plus 2 = 4 after a while you get a feel for all the alternatives to get to 4, that comes with expierence = feel.

Just my 15 cents worth.
Lets not be argumentive.
Thanks
Dan Honert

ps. can't remember the last time Ferris posted here, don't hold your breath. I've been here awhile, but sometimes I can't remember who i'm talking to or what about.
 
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