Boy! Was I Ever Wrong

B

Boyd Allen

Active member
Like many of you, I have always obsessed about seating my bullets straight, and I will not discontinue this practice, but a recent experience has put this pursuit is its proper perspective.

A fiend gave me a take off 6PPC barrel that is probably a Bartlein or Krieger four groove, that while the end of its life, evidently has some good groups left in it. After adjusting the thread diameter a few thousandths, I installed it on my Viper bench rifle, and took it to the range with my loading kit. After firing my first tests, I used my regular FL die, an out of production Harrell Vari-Base, that is not designed to change the shoulder diameter of fired cases, to size the brass, primed the cases, measured the powder and started to seat my first bullet. The case would not insert fully into the seater. Trying another seater, I found the same problem. After some head scratching, I discovered that the chamber is about .005 larger than standard for a 6PPC. Luckily I had a Hornady one piece die with me, so I finished my testing using it. Later, I thought about what sizing down shoulders that much might do to the life of my brass, and decided to see if I had a different seater that would work. As it happens I do. It came to me as part of a writing assignment, and for that reason I will not reveal its maker, since they are a an excellent company, with this one bad design. The seater produced the most erratic and large loaded round runout that I have ever seen, up to .006....but it would work with the oversized brass from this barrel, and since I am seating .003 short of jam, (and the throat was long) and thought that the rounds might straighten in the chamber, I decided to give it a try. It is a good thing that I did. I have shot more high zero, and low one three shot tests with that barrel than any that I have tried before. I have not even put a round that has been chambered on my gauge. What would be the point? All the information that I need is right there on the target.
 
Interesting report Boyd. Sometimes everything that should add-up to disaster works. I drag race as a hobby and years ago a guy brought an old Chevy II to the track. The motor sounded tired, the suspension was all wrong, and the third member whined like it was about to grenade. We all laughed until they posted his ET on the scoreboard.

It's rare that being "out" or "off" will yield results but it does happen (maybe the stars align, maybe it's luck). Anyways, thanks for sharing this.

-Lee
www.singleactions.com
 
Boyd, That is why i quit chasing my tail, I you load with a bushing die and the part of the neck is not sized and your free bore diameter is .2435 or less when you chamber it how much can it be out a .ooo1? The gage to check them is not usually that close…… jim
 
Zdog said:
Boyd, one of my bestest friends and BR shooting partner says, "The quickest way to derail someone's BR program back is to give them a speed trap (chronograph) and a run out gauge." It appears that your experience supports this quip. :)

Zedog (that's Zee-dog, Chris Mitchell)
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I'd agree with your friend's assessment of the runout gauge, or at least to the degree of importance it tells us. But I'd totally disagree with him about the chronograph. It's an integral part of learning what temperature does to velocities and how that correlates to tune. It's sure helped me seperate truth from all the armchair theory that floats through this sport.
 
I agree with the usefulness of a chronograph when used in that way, but too often I think that they are used to chase speed.

Years back, I saw a fellow shoot the largest number of zeros in a 100 yard agg. that I had ever seen shot. He was shooting a high round barrel that he said would only group at very low velocities and was shooting what Gary Ocock referred to as Spencer's boxcars (because of their unusually blunt ogives). Every so often when I start looking at a short range benchrest bullet's BC or or catch myself wandering off to a higher velocity node that I know will probably give me more problems, I remember that time and return to thinking about what gets the best results rather than looking for the highest numbers.
 
Boyd By any chance did you try putting a round in the chamber then take it back out without the bullet coming out, then try spinning it again, you will probably find the chamber straightens it out.

Joe Salt
 
I had done this in the past, which is why I tried the seater. It came out with about .00015 on the bullet. BTW, I still favor as brass that is as straight as possible, and like seaters that put bullets in as straight as they can be, but for this application the latter was not needed.
 
I am engaging in a little bit of Benchrest Heresy at this time myself.

Since I am not getting to shoot much competition right now, I have too much time to think about it;)

A while back, I was just checking a bunch of 220 Russian cases, and was amazed at how consistant they were.

So, I took a rail gun barrel that has been a decent performer, and made a fixture to allow me to run a .274 reamer in the neck portion of the chamber. I then machined a .271 bushing for my sizing die, and took it to the range.

All I did to the cases was blow them out to 6PPC, trim to length, and chamfer them. The loaded rounds with a Barts Boatail measure .271 at the neck.

At the range, I could not tell the difference in my regular .269. I even shot one ten shot group that was no bigger than a .150.

I also did a barrel up for my favorite LV, and the results were the same.

Several of my friends were there to witness this, and they were a tad dumbfounded.

Anyway, I will decide if I am going to switch over to this. Maybe I was just having a good day. But it sure gives you pause for thought.
 
Boyd, Go & re-read page 75-76 of Rifle Accuracy Facts, & remember the equation works the other way, too. Making one thing "bad" when everything else is "good" doesn't hurt that much.

I do believe, and I'm sure will get knocked for it, that a lot of the "must weigh powder charge to .02 grains," "must sort bullets to .0001 variance in bearing length," "must (or must not) anneal," etc., came about when someone got a very good barrel, started winning, paid more attention to their loading, and then somehow concluded it was all the attention they paid to reloading. Really, it was all just the good barrel. Take a poor to average barrel & see how much all this stuff helps. Take a hummer & skip it, and see how much it hurts.
 
Jackie...you mentioned making a bushing for your sizer...what type of material did you use? I'd imagine they can be made out of oil or water hardening drill rod?
 
DSM said:
Jackie...you mentioned making a bushing for your sizer...what type of material did you use? I'd imagine they can be made out of oil or water hardening drill rod?
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Since this was just a temporary thing to see how it would shoot, I just chucked up a grade-8 bolt and made a .271 bushing out of it. Just bore it and polish to the finish size.They are .500 on the OD.

Heck, it sizes the case great, but I will call Bruno and order a .270 and .271 Redding later.

You could make them from drill rod, just polish out the ID after hardening..........Jackie
 
Charles I've seen this for 40 years, guys that do absolutely nothing special as far as reloading. But shoot lights out! Good Barrels and good bullets I say!

Joe Salt
 
Joe, I have always said that this game is about barrels, bullets, and tuning. The rest is just window dressing.........jackie
 
jackie schmidt said:
Since this was just a temporary thing to see how it would shoot, I just chucked up a grade-8 bolt and made a .271 bushing out of it. Just bore it and polish to the finish size.They are .500 on the OD.

Heck, it sizes the case great, but I will call Bruno and order a .270 and .271 Redding later.

You could make them from drill rod, just polish out the ID after hardening..........Jackie
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Jackie, I have in stock, custom carbide bushings for the no-turn 6mm cartridges that have a loaded round diameter of .271 and a neck diameter of .274. That's exactly the setup I use in the no-turn 6 Beggs.

Like you, I have found no decrease in accuracy using no-turn chambers with the Lapua 220 Russian case. I'm one who sort of enjoys turning cases but that being said, it sure is nice to just pluck the new Lapua cases from the box, load 'em and shoot!

I do the same thing with the no-turn 220 Beggs which uses a .257 neck diameter. The loaded round measures .254. With the thicker neck walls, I have found that a carbide bushing .001 smaller than the loaded round diameter provides perfect neck tension.

BTW, if you haven't had the pleasure of using carbide bushings, you are in for a treat. They leave the nicest, burnished finish on the necks.

I'll look forward to hearing from you. It's nice to see you posting more lately. :)

E-mail me please at genebeggs@cableone.net and maybe we can work out a trade. :p

Later,

Gene Beggs
 
Gene, I hope to be shooting some Matches next year, at the very least the ones at Tomball.

Work has not slowed down. We are back on 7 days a week for now, in the process of putting up a new building.

Next year looks to be just as busy as the last three.

I have been playing with my '67 Chevelle a lot, upgraded the drive drain last year, she is in the paint shop now getting a facelift. My next move is to install a ProCharger on the big 540 inch Rat.

You can't ever have enough horsepower.:D
 
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How many ways are there to skin a cat???????????????????????

Boyd Allen said:
Like many of you, I have always obsessed about seating my bullets straight, and I will not discontinue this practice, but a recent experience has put this pursuit is its proper perspective.

A fiend gave me a take off 6PPC barrel that is probably a Bartlein or Krieger four groove, that while the end of its life, evidently has some good groups left in it. After adjusting the thread diameter a few thousandths, I installed it on my Viper bench rifle, and took it to the range with my loading kit. After firing my first tests, I used my regular FL die, an out of production Harrell Vari-Base, that is not designed to change the shoulder diameter of fired cases, to size the brass, primed the cases, measured the powder and started to seat my first bullet. The case would not insert fully into the seater. Trying another seater, I found the same problem. After some head scratching, I discovered that the chamber is about .005 larger than standard for a 6PPC. Luckily I had a Hornady one piece die with me, so I finished my testing using it. Later, I thought about what sizing down shoulders that much might do to the life of my brass, and decided to see if I had a different seater that would work. As it happens I do. It came to me as part of a writing assignment, and for that reason I will not reveal its maker, since they are a an excellent company, with this one bad design. The seater produced the most erratic and large loaded round runout that I have ever seen, up to .006....but it would work with the oversized brass from this barrel, and since I am seating .003 short of jam, (and the throat was long) and thought that the rounds might straighten in the chamber, I decided to give it a try. It is a good thing that I did. I have shot more high zero, and low one three shot tests with that barrel than any that I have tried before. I have not even put a round that has been chambered on my gauge. What would be the point? All the information that I need is right there on the target.
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And imagine, some guy just convinced me how necessary a Concentricity Tool was.........Yeah, I bit and bought one......Should have talked with you first Boyd.....LOL:confused:
 
I said in that particular case, where there was minimal bullet in neck, and bullets were seated well into the rifling. There are many other conditions where the experience that I recounted would not apply, for example, when bullets are being jumped. Also, I strongly believe that sized brass needs to be as straight as possible, and continue my longstanding efforts toward that goal. I guess I should admit that the title of my thread was designed to draw in readers to a discussion, and that I am only admitting to being wrong about one narrowly defined situation. IMO not having the tools to measure things is never a good idea. If your groups are as small as you want them to be, then obviously nothing needs checking. If they are not, then everything needs checking...and that may require a few tools.
 
Boyd Allen said:
IMO not having the tools to measure things is never a good idea. If your groups are as small as you want them to be, then obviously nothing needs checking. If they are not, then everything needs checking...and that may require a few tools.
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Excellent quote !.!.!
 
Another saying that I used when I was in Project Management: "If you don't measure it, you can't control it"
 
jackie schmidt said:
I have been playing with my '67 Chevelle a lot, upgraded the drive drain last year, she is in the paint shop now getting a facelift. My next move is to install a ProCharger on the big 540 inch Rat.

You can't ever have enough horsepower.:D
Click to expand...

Jackie, my '93 Fox body has a 6 lb. Power Dyne unit. It's a bit ;) of a sleeper. Gives the 'ricers fits.....:cool: -Al



 
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