bob finger
New member
Lots of rifles do as yours does. The first shot is loud and always a flyer. Nothing to worry about, just get used to it. I suspect it happens because there is little wax in the bore after cleaning. bob
Bill's mantra on tuners
- Thread starter analretentive
- Start date
K
katokoch
Guest
I'm used to the first shot after cleaning being 1" high and then the rifle is back on after 4-5 rounds, and then I shoot a handful of sighters just to be certain.
Now I'm experiencing the opposite and it is baffling me. The first shot is low about 1" and then the bullets climb up to where I'm aiming versus "settling down." The rifle is a Suhl 150 with a factory 16.5" twist barrel and it is shooting well now so I'm not too concerned about the low shots after cleaning, but it does seem counter-intuitive for it to behave that way.
Now I'm experiencing the opposite and it is baffling me. The first shot is low about 1" and then the bullets climb up to where I'm aiming versus "settling down." The rifle is a Suhl 150 with a factory 16.5" twist barrel and it is shooting well now so I'm not too concerned about the low shots after cleaning, but it does seem counter-intuitive for it to behave that way.
analretentive
Member
getting high is ok?
Bob, I should have been a little more specific. Yes, first shot out of a spic and span barrel is expected high. What I'm getting is a high strike after hesitating for 2-3 minutes in the middle of a string. Not much, and very predictable.
And Wilbur, yes, the bolt is closed on the cartridge during that period. gonna have to try it the other way...bolt open. Maybe the prolonged bolt pressure affects ignition?
Gerry
Bob, I should have been a little more specific. Yes, first shot out of a spic and span barrel is expected high. What I'm getting is a high strike after hesitating for 2-3 minutes in the middle of a string. Not much, and very predictable.
And Wilbur, yes, the bolt is closed on the cartridge during that period. gonna have to try it the other way...bolt open. Maybe the prolonged bolt pressure affects ignition?
Gerry
V
Vibe
Guest
First shot from a clean bore hitting a bit off? Just a guess, but if one were to slug those barrels, I'd guess the one that would hit high would have a tight spot close to the chamber, and the one that would hit low would have a tighter bore, with a loose spot close to the chamber. Once a good layer of wax gets laid down things level out.
Hitting high after a few minutes wait? Well Bill Calfee attributes that to moisture contamination of the wax layer. He just refers to it as "water in the bore" - but since all combustion processes generally have H2O as a by product, it makes sense that some will condense in the bore. And given a few minutes could very well affect the wax layer - much the same as a glass of iced tea sweats and leaves a white discoloration in wax furniture finish. Wet wax lubricates differently than fresh.
And smokeless powder is fairly sensitive to pressure variations, the higher the resistance, the faster it burns.
So a high resistance close to the chamber gets you a higher initial pressure spike, thus higher velocity, and a lower resistance AT the chamber, but higher down the bore, gets you less initial pressure and more down bore drag, thus a lower velocity. But after the lube gets laid down, it evens out.
Just guessing.
Hitting high after a few minutes wait? Well Bill Calfee attributes that to moisture contamination of the wax layer. He just refers to it as "water in the bore" - but since all combustion processes generally have H2O as a by product, it makes sense that some will condense in the bore. And given a few minutes could very well affect the wax layer - much the same as a glass of iced tea sweats and leaves a white discoloration in wax furniture finish. Wet wax lubricates differently than fresh.
And smokeless powder is fairly sensitive to pressure variations, the higher the resistance, the faster it burns.
So a high resistance close to the chamber gets you a higher initial pressure spike, thus higher velocity, and a lower resistance AT the chamber, but higher down the bore, gets you less initial pressure and more down bore drag, thus a lower velocity. But after the lube gets laid down, it evens out.
Just guessing.
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Cartridge getting hotter while sitting in the chamber ?
Kent Owens
Well-known member
Your rifle is not in tune if it's shooting high after sitting for 2 minutes.
Try some more spots on the tuner and see if it changes. I don't know what barrel contour or length you have, just sounds like it isn't in tune.
Try some more spots on the tuner and see if it changes. I don't know what barrel contour or length you have, just sounds like it isn't in tune.
Pete Wass
Well-known member
But Bob!
I saw written recently that an engineer @ Eley said the wax is burned instantly at ignition and does not collect in our barrels. Has to be some other explanation
.
Pete
I saw written recently that an engineer @ Eley said the wax is burned instantly at ignition and does not collect in our barrels. Has to be some other explanation
.Pete
bob finger
New member
Opppps: I was addressing the comment by 52 shooter, not the OP's problem. Sorry bout that.
I rarely wait 2 minutes between shots without first going to a sighter. When I don't go to a sighter I often get upset with myself. Guess that is one reason I'm such a lousy wind shooter, no patience and little consistency. bob
I rarely wait 2 minutes between shots without first going to a sighter. When I don't go to a sighter I often get upset with myself. Guess that is one reason I'm such a lousy wind shooter, no patience and little consistency. bob
Wax on bullet
Pete,
I read the comment about the wax never reaching the end of the barrel. Engineer stated the wax on the bullet was mostly to assist in chambering a round. I'm surprised that there has not been more discussion on this issue, as most RFBR shooters believes fouling shots are necessary to re-lubricate the bore after cleaning.
John
I saw written recently that an engineer @ Eley said the wax is burned instantly at ignition and does not collect in our barrels. Has to be some other explanation
Pete
Pete,
I read the comment about the wax never reaching the end of the barrel. Engineer stated the wax on the bullet was mostly to assist in chambering a round. I'm surprised that there has not been more discussion on this issue, as most RFBR shooters believes fouling shots are necessary to re-lubricate the bore after cleaning.
John
Relube the bbl or warm it up ?????
I
IndianaJames
Guest
What makes you think...
...that burned wax is not an excellent lubricant?
I don't know what's going on in the barrel while the bullet is in there, but I'm thinking difficult to chamber "dry" bullets would yield worse results at the target.
Jim
...that burned wax is not an excellent lubricant?
I don't know what's going on in the barrel while the bullet is in there, but I'm thinking difficult to chamber "dry" bullets would yield worse results at the target.
Jim
analretentive
Member
Tuna fish
Kent,
24" .900 straight 4 groove ratchet. What does waiting 2 minutes between shots have to do with barrel vibration? Is everything I've listened to up to this point flawed?
Gerry
Kent,
24" .900 straight 4 groove ratchet. What does waiting 2 minutes between shots have to do with barrel vibration? Is everything I've listened to up to this point flawed?
Gerry
V
Vibe
Guest
Combustion produces water vapor (steam), after a few minutes this water vapor has had time to condense onto the cooler walls of the bore, this allows it to interact with the wax layer and changes the lubricity. The change in lubricity changes the acceleration and velocity profile, which affects the time in barrel. If the condition of tune cannot handle (dare I say compensate for) the new condition, then the next shot will not land at POA.
analretentive
Member
uh, oh
You're now telling me that my tuning condition, may or may not be affected by lubricity, temperature? That's pretty definitive.
You know what. I'm ready to say screw it, and just shoot.
Probably best to keep quiet, shoot a lot, and show up at a match with real results.
Gerry
You're now telling me that my tuning condition, may or may not be affected by lubricity, temperature? That's pretty definitive.
You know what. I'm ready to say screw it, and just shoot.
Probably best to keep quiet, shoot a lot, and show up at a match with real results.
Gerry
V
Vibe
Guest
LOL. That's not what I said at all. But I like your plan of action.
analretentive
Member
.22 Epperson Cricket
Hey Vibe,
Is that the little gun that Will Smith gets in MIB? I did some research, and don't find much.
Are you one of those insane people like myself who would dare to load their own rimfire cartridges?
Gerry
Hey Vibe,
Is that the little gun that Will Smith gets in MIB? I did some research, and don't find much.
Are you one of those insane people like myself who would dare to load their own rimfire cartridges?
Gerry
V
Vibe
Guest
LOL. That was sort of what I was trying to do with the 22 EC. Worked out pretty well for Arthur Langsford, of Myra Sports in Broken Hill, NSW, Australia.
Some barrels will wait, some barrels will not, past 2-3 minutes, it's really no big deal and as has been mentioned, more than likely because often water vapor in the bore impacts it. The best practice is to try and keep a fairly regular pace of shots even if you need to play on the slighter for a couple.
analretentive
Member
Thanks
For all the response. I may not have all the solutions, but I know...at the very least...what I'm experiencing is not unique.
But wait! There's more!
There is actually some ammo on my local Walmart shelves this weekend. Hope y'all are getting the same experience.
Gerry
For all the response. I may not have all the solutions, but I know...at the very least...what I'm experiencing is not unique.
But wait! There's more!
There is actually some ammo on my local Walmart shelves this weekend. Hope y'all are getting the same experience.
Gerry