Bill Calfee - Montezuma Is a Keeper

IndianaJames said:
I suspect what Bob C. is trying to tell us is that the grams/meter³ is the most useful way to express how the atmosphere is affecting our bullets. He may have a way to directly correlate the value to a tuner setting or ammo selection. He certainly knows how to make it work!

Jim
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You are correct .. To bad it always ends this way,guess you can't speak your mind here any longer. I read and learn to gain not to dispute everything that is posted. It's a shame because Bob has a lot of insight into rimfire as do others who no longer post here
 
This is a very good thread and it follows several other good threads, It probably is a good time to take some facts from all these threads and bring out all the important facets of tuning and point out some of the things you have to be aware of when setting your tuner.
.As Collins points out you must be aware of the water content of the air you are shooting in. This has influence on just where you set the tuner.
Then Beggs showed us how the air density in the barrel ahead of the bullet must be taken into account. I think it was the weight of this air that is important. I believe the speed of sound in this air may also have bearing on your tuner adjustment.
Then Calfee said you must adjust to achieve a stopped muzzle but you could probably do this under any atmospheric conditions. (this may be a secret procedure and all may not have access to the method used) The repositioning of one node or another as you tune has been discussed but this is still being researched.
There have been many posters that pointed out the importance of D. A. of the air on tuner settings. Some of these posters pointed out the importance of being a pilot and having a real good understanding of aerodynamics.
The importance on tuning of temperature of the gun and air has been covered by a great many expert benchresters, and even a few non benchresters. There has even been testing done to show that there are times when physical laws are not always followed as material changes size due to temperature change. Regardless, you must consider temperature as you make adjustments. It may not be important whether you consider your gun to act according to natural or supernatural laws.
There have been several attempts to show how the properties of barrel steel influence tuners but this whole concept is kind of still being worried over. There is no question however of the roll of barrel and tuner dimensions in tuner adjustment. This is a little complex but with a few measurements (barrel ringing) and some simple calculations this adjustment problem can be resolved.
Then the shape of the sine wave (there are differences of opinions on where this wave is) is certainly considered by many to be very important as adjustments are made. This is also sort of complex and most shooters (especially those who haven't scored very high in a match) are going to have to work out their own procedure here.
There are some who feel your tuner settings only apply at specific ranges, at specific altitudes, and basically under only some atmospheric conditions. You will probably have to find a shooter you like and follow his lead in this regard.
All these things are something good shooters (those that have scored high in a match) know about and follow as they make adjustments. Most are not open to any scientific discussion, or at least any discussion by anyone not considered to be a good benchrest shooter. Each shooter has to work up his own "laws" that govern how materials act and then adjust his tuner as he sees fit.
There has been a lot of different opinions as to how best determine if adjustments are effective. The results, that is accuracy, seems to come and go, with some shooters always chasing the ideal, while others just settle for what they get. It appears though, that settings that make the shooter happy mean the adjustment is correct, and are without question the best ones to use.
 
Pacecil
Most shooters buy a tuner and get there barrels made from a mass producer of competition barrels.
What that means is your combination is pretty much set.
You can do two basic things.
One you can move the weight for and aft.
Two you can make small weight changes to the tuners overall weight.
After that anything you do is to keep the set-up you have shooting at its best.
Waterboy
 
It looks like that the new great cut rifled barrel from Rock Creek in .22 rimfire got side tracked into a pee contest. Rock Creek does have out a super barrel IMO and I have one that is awesome. Paul, James or Dan can tell you more about their product and their plans..... Jerry
 
Lynn....I have held off posting after your post because I want to try and understand fully what you were saying. I think you feel as I do that adjusting a tuner is essentially just changing the weight or moving it around - it has nothing to do with moisture in the air, air density, temperature, altitude, wave shape, speed of sound, wind, or any thing else except gun or ammo properties. It is just a matter of trying your tuner at several arbitrary points and deciding which one you like best. You don't have to try and string out a log series of groups, or make some fancy statistical analysis. You can pretty much forget about conditions in the rest of the word around you and just shoot what you are convinced is your gun set as accurate as you can make it!
 
Pacecil
Bill wants the tuner in a location out in front of the muzzle and he wants it weighted correctly.His water in the bore test is to let him know that the weight is positioned correctly.
After 5 plus years I am still confused as to why the posters here didn't do one of two things?
The first thing would be to just ask him questions.
The second thing would be to ignore him.
Why they chose to run him off is beyond my ability to comprehend.
As a side note the smallest 25 shot centerfire agg fired at 100 yards was just done by one of the original "Funny People" and he was using a tuner to do it.
It boggles the mind.
Waterboy
 
What really boggles the mind is why no one has run you off. You denigrate Jackie, who is one of the most generous and respected members of this forum, by calling him a "Funny People". Obviously, not a term of endearment. This label was given simply because he did not agree with Bill Calfee's each and every opinion. In addition, you take this opportunity on the heels of what may be Jackie's finest hour. It does boggle the mind.
 
Choosing Heros:

It might be best instead of choosing Heros to be more open minded about the information that appears here. I know it is tough to do and I sometimes fall into the trap of taking sides but unless any of us are very deep into this whole tuning bidness I think it wise to do a lot of heavy looking on.
 
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Pete,

That was profound; and, should be required reading!

Jim
 
hulk said:
What really boggles the mind is why no one has run you off. You denigrate Jackie, who is one of the most generous and respected members of this forum, by calling him a "Funny People". Obviously, not a term of endearment. This label was given simply because he did not agree with Bill Calfee's each and every opinion. In addition, you take this opportunity on the heels of what may be Jackie's finest hour. It does boggle the mind.
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Hulk
If you would have checked the centerfire forum before flying off the handle you would know that both Bill Calfee and myself have already congratulated Jackie on his fine tuner shooting.
I do find it amazing that with a working search feature you think someone was labeled as a "Funny Person" because they didn't agree with everything Bill Calfee said.Jackie earned the title then had Wilbur delete all of his posts and he is a Supermoderator who is supposed to keep the peace.
It doesn't suprise me in the least that you are now promoting throwing more members off of this forum.Birds of a feather comes to mind.
Waterboy
What I don't find amazing is half of the Funny People are posting on Bill's new website.
 
First of all, I don't think that Bill was run off. IMO he left. There is a difference. No one but he knows why. When people make unsubstantiated statements as if they are fact, I think that it is reasonable to challenge them. I do not think this is rude. To me, he rudeness occurs when the discussion turns from the merits of a position in a discussion to characterizing the person you disagree with, rather than arguing the point. To me, this is simply a common tactic that some employ when they are not able to adequately justify their position. By changing the subject in a manner that is designed to inflame the passions, the original argument (that was being lost) fades into the background. Bill's contribution to rimfire Benchrest is very large, but I would point out that there are other gunsmiths that build winning rifles. No one is right all of the time, including me. If we write about what we have done, what seemed to work, and what did not, and why we think that was, this is a good thing. Is it science...hardly. Can we learn something, and improve our performance anyway, you bet. Long live anecdotal information. Mostly that is all that is available.
 
Damn, boys! they gonna hamstring obama's tax increases and convince the banks to start loanin $$$ to real people again, so lets all lighten up an git back to pickin on the noobs who made a C in highschool physics (mebbe higher if they cheated) and know it all. hey noobs, a clue. look at droplet accumulation on a spinning subsonic projectile. Balance issue?? at what humidity level relative to mach number does it become a problem, if at all? Why would someone who knows what he is doing be particularly interested in an ultra high humidity level? The answers are out there in the aeronautical engineering space (pardon), including photos, if you take the time to bother. want a link? sure.....................Seymour
 
Boyd Allen said:
First of all, I don't think that Bill was run off. IMO he left. There is a difference.

Boyd
Your absolutely right!!!! Bill was treated with dignity and respect and left because he could no longer stand all the adoration.PLEASE tell me you are kidding.
As Supermoderator yourself can you give the visitors to this forum a ratio of slurrs/profanity thrown at Bill to those thrown from Bill???????
I am guessing the ratio would look like 99 and 44/100 to 1 but again I would like your estimate.

When people make unsubstantiated statements as if they are fact, I think that it is reasonable to challenge them. I do not think this is rude.
Bill doesn't think this is rude either.

To me, he rudeness occurs when the discussion turns from the merits of a position in a discussion to characterizing the person you disagree with, rather than arguing the point. To me, this is simply a common tactic that some employ when they are not able to adequately justify their position.

Boyd
Are you telling me Bill was attacking people's cognisent thoughts in any way shape or form? Are you saying his 30 year recorded and published tuner results were bogus back then but now we are to believe Jackie is doing something different?

Bill's contribution to rimfire Benchrest is very large, but I would point out that there are other gunsmiths that build winning rifles. No one is right all of the time, including me. If we write about what we have done, what seemed to work, and what did not, and why we think that was, this is a good thing. Is it science...hardly. Can we learn something, and improve our performance anyway, you bet. Long live anecdotal information. Mostly that is all that is available.
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Boyd
I believe Bill has posted pictures and drawings on how he sets up his tuners and why? I also believe they are published in Precision Shooting magazine and in his book.In any of his pictures or drawings can you point out a single flaw based in science other than the terminology of two words? I will giv you the two words=parallel node and stopped.
I am asking you if Bill had the science wrong? We do know he said you could use your own words to describe what he was saying or did you not read that?
I know Vibe will try and argue the stopped part or the term parallel node to the end of time with Bill but right now I am looking at a Funny Person T-Shirt and Vibe isn't on it!!!!!!!!!! Can you explain why?
I am only guessing on why he isn't on it but maybe its because he pointed out what he thought was wrong with Bills terminology and was never rude or vulgar like the others on the shirt? i may be off base on that guess but once again I may be 99 and 44/100 in favor of my own guess.
I don't want you to think I am bashing you because while the whole fiasco was taking place you were the only Supermoderator doing his job correctly in my humble opinion.
Waterboy
 
Hi Lynn,
As a matter of personal choice, I can live with Bill's terminology, and I will always be grateful to him for explaining so much of his work. We are seldom so lucky as to have such discoveries put in print. Where I take exception is with what I believe is his contention that CF tuners can work, and be tuned in the same way as rimfire. In the case of a well balanced (for free recoil) 10.5# 6PPC, I believe that what he refers to as a stopped muzzle is probably not possible. As I have said before, until one is built, it is not proven. On the other hand, I think that there is a chance that it can be done with a the higher weight limits in the 1,000 yd game. Real question...Has it been done there? Thanks for the compliment on my moderation. I think that one thing that posters might keep in mind...would they say the same thing that they are about to post, to the person's face in a room full of people that they both know, that were listening? Sometimes I see examples of what I call "keyboard brave", but mostly we are very lucky in the troll department. I think that Benchrest shooters are generally a fine and civil bunch...who only occasionally get carried away in the moment, (as I have myself).
 
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