Wayne Shaw
Active member
Typical Mike in co response.
Berger Doing More to Support Short Range BR
- Thread starter Eric Stecker
- Start date
Typical Mike in co response.
geo.ulrich
Member
Wayne, Its surprising how someone who knows so little about this sport has so much to say.
B.Larson
New member
Wayne, Its surprising how someone who knows so little about this sport has so much to say.
yep.sounds like a fella who USED to post here, the same style of RUDE comments.....named "STOOL"......???
Joe Duke
Active member
Joe, I don't disagree. That's why I used the words " from that perspective", carefully in my post. If they succeed in eliminating their new competition, it won't be good for anybody but Berger. As I'm sure you understand in business though, there are benefits to low overhead and niche markets. Ideally, I think we can all agree that if the makers can survive and be successful, the shooting community will benefit. Nobody wants to see the big bad wolf eat little red riding hood...except the wolf. I think that if the new competition has the capital, expanding into making bullets makes sense to up their sales and margins. I assume that's what Berger was protecting by keeping jackets for their own use instead of selling them to competing custom bullet makers. With availability and lower prices, the markets should grow for both companies from what use to be "normal". We're a small portion of Berger's business but with expanded sales from better supply and pricing, Berger may not realize much, if any loss and the small guy can keep going. Now that we have another quality jacket supplier, the only way to completely consume them would be if Berger can convince the br crowd that their product is superior. I would like to see our new jacket maker venture into boutique bullets...They may well see it differently and have other plans, but it seems to make sense. I haven't bought any of the new maker's jackets. Are they currently priced near Berger's new pricing? If so, it makes even more sense. If they have to cut their margins, the logical thing to do would be to offer complete bullets, I would think, to make up for it. Yes, I see this as a likely power play, but if both can succeed in their respective areas, I think we all benefit. Just my thoughts and I don't disagree with your points. I see opportunity here, believe it or not. If the new makers have to cut margins to an unacceptable level, and can't replace those dollars...forget everything I said and sell everything.
Mike, I can't speak about Sta-Moly as I have not priced or bought them but the price Eric quoted on .825's is way under what I paid for Bart's jackets. Enough that I suspect it is below Bart's cost. Notice I said "I suspect" as I do not know Bart's cost structure. I only know what I paid for them. I am not complaining at all about what I paid. I thought it was a good price and I still do and am very happy with the product. I do not make bullets for sale; only for myself.
Like yourself, I think having multiple suppliers in the market can only be a good thing. Monopoly is never a good thing. I do not want to see the wolf swallow Little Red Riding Hood either.
Joe
mwezell
Mike Ezell
I think we'd pretty much all, like to see both companies succeed. Hopefully, they do.
Now I'm not bashing anyone here, but perhaps the new mfg. let current market conditions help set their price. Hopefully, they see it prudent AND still profitable, to keep supplying a quality product. If it works with their structure, I still believe offering completed bullets may be logical for replacing the lost margins in jackets. I still want to see small, individual bullet makers do well, too.
Maybe I'm asking too much.
Again, I would like to think there are ways to turn this into an opportunity that may benefit everyone, instead of gloom and doom.
geo.ulrich
Member
George , It would be great for 30's or any of them problem is the jackets that were purchased before this, what should the bulletmaker do. He paid an inflated price and now is supposed to drop prices because jackets came down at this time. Here's the question what is the reason the prices for 30's being so high to start with and we all know the answer to that. While I'm at it how come only the few jackets mentioned are discounted to a realistic price what about long range 6's, 6.5's,7mm and long 30's I guess they just continue to get gouged. Wouldn't make me feel real good.. George sorry I missed you at the nats..
30 caliber bullet prices
Like George said, the price of 30's are high because of the prices that we paid for jackets. In the Last 3 years Ronnie Cheek had to from $330 to $430 per 1000, and I just followed his lead. This was a direct result of jackets going from .14 to .24, and that is exactly a $100 dollar increase in cost per 1000. Cores also went up a little, but we just absorbed that. One thing that will always make 30's cost more is the pulling of the handle. That will always be about twice as labor intensive and a 6mm. I would guess the handle effort to be right at 50 lbs. of force, and we have to push the handle 2000 times just to make 1000 bullets.
I'm beginning to wonder if Eric is following this post or not. He hasn't answered my questions.
Michael
Like George said, the price of 30's are high because of the prices that we paid for jackets. In the Last 3 years Ronnie Cheek had to from $330 to $430 per 1000, and I just followed his lead. This was a direct result of jackets going from .14 to .24, and that is exactly a $100 dollar increase in cost per 1000. Cores also went up a little, but we just absorbed that. One thing that will always make 30's cost more is the pulling of the handle. That will always be about twice as labor intensive and a 6mm. I would guess the handle effort to be right at 50 lbs. of force, and we have to push the handle 2000 times just to make 1000 bullets.
I'm beginning to wonder if Eric is following this post or not. He hasn't answered my questions.
Michael
There is a difference for some of us
Paul,
I don't make bullets to make a living. I would make more money waiting tables. I make bullets for me, and for others who want to shoot my bullets. I wasn't in it to make a lot of money. I could have saved a lot of money by just using Cheek's bullets. They performed as good as anything I've ever shot. I did it to make a little money in the evenings. Just enough money to offset the cost of the dies. I didn't lose $5000 over a years time. I lost about $6000 overnight. The problem is this. I purchased the jackets as a favor for other shooters more than it was for me. I could have done just fine with 2000 jackets per year for myself. I only lost $6000 because I wanted to help supply bullets to shooters when they couldn't find them. I lost four times more money trying to help others shoot this year than I spent on my own shooting this year. I only shot 300 bullets this year. Just 2 matches. I hate to think how much I would be in the hole if it wasn't for George Ulrich. I have about $5000 in 3 sets of carbide bullet dies. I would have $10,000 in dies from other die makers. I am a tool and die maker myself, and was planning on making my own dies. If it wasn't for George's fair pricing, I'm certain I would have. He saved me a lot of time, and I got better dies than what I could have made myself.
Michael
Paul,
I don't make bullets to make a living. I would make more money waiting tables. I make bullets for me, and for others who want to shoot my bullets. I wasn't in it to make a lot of money. I could have saved a lot of money by just using Cheek's bullets. They performed as good as anything I've ever shot. I did it to make a little money in the evenings. Just enough money to offset the cost of the dies. I didn't lose $5000 over a years time. I lost about $6000 overnight. The problem is this. I purchased the jackets as a favor for other shooters more than it was for me. I could have done just fine with 2000 jackets per year for myself. I only lost $6000 because I wanted to help supply bullets to shooters when they couldn't find them. I lost four times more money trying to help others shoot this year than I spent on my own shooting this year. I only shot 300 bullets this year. Just 2 matches. I hate to think how much I would be in the hole if it wasn't for George Ulrich. I have about $5000 in 3 sets of carbide bullet dies. I would have $10,000 in dies from other die makers. I am a tool and die maker myself, and was planning on making my own dies. If it wasn't for George's fair pricing, I'm certain I would have. He saved me a lot of time, and I got better dies than what I could have made myself.
Michael
Wayne Shaw
Active member
I quit shooting 30 caliber in score when I couldn't buy a thousand for $275-$300 any more.
I wish I had an equitable solution to this conundrum -- but I don't.
I like Berger's products, I like the attitude that Eric, as new president of the company, has spearheaded new pricing and availability to "support short-range BR" and, as an end user, I'm happy to see any possible price decrease. I also like and support custom bullet makers and have an understanding of their situation. All I can say is, "it's America". Markets rise and fall. Local gas stations bemoan the fact that they have a tank full of gasoline in the ground at a certain price and next day the prices drop and they can barely get their money back. But as the end user, I like the price drop. I got into BR in the Y2K era and paid $108 for an 8-lb jug of powder. Last week I paid more than double that and was "glad" to get it.
How about the other jacket prices? Are Sierra, Sta-Moly or Bart's priced better than J4's? I'm guessing they entered the market to compete with J4's and now it has resulted in a J4 price reduction for certain calibers. It's America. How many segments of our economy do the big guys outprice the little guys, undercut the competition, etc. We applaud it as "good business". It seems to me that the end result of Berger's action should be better prices for the people who pull the triggers but it's difficult to see an equitable solution for the people who pull the handles and have a stockpile of jackets that were more expensive than the new price. Seems like there are only two solutions, neither very equitable: 1. Keep prices up until the old supply of jackets is gone. Probably be undercut by makers who have fewer jackets stockpiled. 2. Reduce prices to the level dictated by the new jacket prices and loose money. No explanation needed.
I like Berger's products, I like the attitude that Eric, as new president of the company, has spearheaded new pricing and availability to "support short-range BR" and, as an end user, I'm happy to see any possible price decrease. I also like and support custom bullet makers and have an understanding of their situation. All I can say is, "it's America". Markets rise and fall. Local gas stations bemoan the fact that they have a tank full of gasoline in the ground at a certain price and next day the prices drop and they can barely get their money back. But as the end user, I like the price drop. I got into BR in the Y2K era and paid $108 for an 8-lb jug of powder. Last week I paid more than double that and was "glad" to get it.
How about the other jacket prices? Are Sierra, Sta-Moly or Bart's priced better than J4's? I'm guessing they entered the market to compete with J4's and now it has resulted in a J4 price reduction for certain calibers. It's America. How many segments of our economy do the big guys outprice the little guys, undercut the competition, etc. We applaud it as "good business". It seems to me that the end result of Berger's action should be better prices for the people who pull the triggers but it's difficult to see an equitable solution for the people who pull the handles and have a stockpile of jackets that were more expensive than the new price. Seems like there are only two solutions, neither very equitable: 1. Keep prices up until the old supply of jackets is gone. Probably be undercut by makers who have fewer jackets stockpiled. 2. Reduce prices to the level dictated by the new jacket prices and loose money. No explanation needed.
I've got a solution to your problem! Tell your stupid Government to Quit raising the cost of living and maybe everything will stabilize. Its all about Greed, the billionaires controlling our every day lives. Make sure you remember to VOTE in two weeks, If all the gun owners in NEW YORK STATE don't VOTE we are SCREWED! CUOMO HAS GOT TO GO
Joe Salt
Joe Salt
Bill Gammon
New member
I "THINK" the reason that Eric has put Short Range Bench Rest up front is because that is the proving ground for most firearm components. Is it the biggest market? hell no, not even close, is it the market where he will make the biggest profit for his company? NO. Now I will make a bunch of people mad at me, but so be it. Eric, I think, is pushing for short range because the number one reason is bullet development. And what is Eric and Bart and God know how many more, into? making bullets, and what is the best field for proving bullet superiority? SHORT RANGE!!! A bullet that at 100yds will shoot minute of angle, (you experts will know what I am talking about), a 1/2 inch will at a 1000yds, give you a possible world record. In short range, you just bought last place. Just my take!!
R.G. Robinett
"That'll never work."
Michael, as you know, while this will vary from press model-to-model, by design, AND from length of lever. Pointing thirty caliber, 10 ogive bullets, on my modified RCBS presses, featuring LONGER than Std. levers, requires 74 pounds of peak pressure - this via my bow-scale!!
No wonder I'm gettin' old!
RGUthink Uknow
New member
Yeah but, the price of gasoline is down so I can drive around and look at the places I used to shoot.
We need a new section on this site, The Mikeinco Section. He can post on that site and we can ignore. There are a few others that could post there and be ignored.
We need a new section on this site, The Mikeinco Section. He can post on that site and we can ignore. There are a few others that could post there and be ignored.
Uthink Uknow
New member
Come to think of it, the price of many things went up because of the price of fuel. I'll have piles of money now that the price of gasoline has come down.
Funny thing on the news a week ago. An economist said that when the price of crude drops, it takes about six weeks for the price at the pump to come down and it does so in increments rather than in one felled swoop. Last year the price jumped on the prediction that the hurricane season may, MAY, be active in the Gulf Of Mexico.
I for one don't get it…. but i will tell you this, You bring your best record holding PPC. or 30 BR to 1000 yds. and you are toast……… but the Dasher can shoot in the zero's at 100
You can not buy long range 6mm jackets…… but short range ones are everywhere now….. So i would guess that is the reason for the lower price from J4……. my 2c…..Jim
No wonder
Randy,
I was just guessing, and didn't want to exaggerate anything. I'm glad to know that if anything I low-balled it. Maybe this is why the back of my neck breaks out in a light sweat in a very dry 70 deg. room.
Michael
Michael, as you know, while this will vary from press model-to-model, by design, AND from length of lever. Pointing thirty caliber, 10 ogive bullets, on my modified RCBS presses, featuring LONGER than Std. levers, requires 74 pounds of peak pressure - this via my bow-scale!!
No wonder I'm gettin' old!
Randy,
I was just guessing, and didn't want to exaggerate anything. I'm glad to know that if anything I low-balled it. Maybe this is why the back of my neck breaks out in a light sweat in a very dry 70 deg. room.
Michael
Gary Walters
New member
Michael
I have seen Brady Knight using an air-assist gizmo on his for making .30 bullets. Big difference with it.
Sounds like you could use one.
I have seen Brady Knight using an air-assist gizmo on his for making .30 bullets. Big difference with it.
Sounds like you could use one.
geo.ulrich
Member
Air assist certainly makes it easier on handle but is slower in production rate.