Berger Doing More to Support Short Range BR
- Thread starter Eric Stecker
- Start date
geo.ulrich
Member
as does changing the linkage...
Eric Stecker
New member
I apologize for taking so long to get back to this thread. There have been several ideas expressed. I will do my best to address them individually.
As far as I am concerned there is no war or issues between IBS and NBRSA. They are two separate organizations that happen to engage in a similar activity. It is no different than the many boxing or other relatable sports associations that exist today. I've shot in one IBS Nationals at Dr. Palmisano's range trying to pick up some easier to obtain Hall of Fame points (didn't work out as hoped). To the best of my memory that is the only IBS match I've ever attended. My home range is Ben Avery in Phoenix, AZ. To my knowledge there has never been an IBS match held there. I haven't looked lately but I believe there are no IBS clubs or matches anywhere in the US except on the east coast. Taking all this into consideration, I am not going to champion a cause for two disconnected organizations. We will focus our efforts on the NBRSA. I encourage anyone or any company to initiate this same effort for the IBS.
I take offense to this statement. I am a student of Walt and he has been a champion for fair pricing his entire life. Our price changes over the years have been based on material costs and our cost of production with one exception I will get to shortly. The link below will show you the significant spike in copper prices that affected our prices over this period.
http://www.infomine.com/investment/metal-prices/copper/all/
The following is something I've shared with anyone who asked so it is not new information. The one exception is when I was in a meeting where it was being discussed that from a purely business point of view, it did not make sense to sell jackets, at all. The math is clear on this point. However, I did manage to be persuasive enough to secure that we would still make jacket available but we were compelled to price them in accordance to what they were worth for our operation. This policy still holds true until another change, and it wasn't the fact that there is other jacket makers in the market.
On Oct 13th I was given the position of President of Berger. I can assure you that this position was hard earned. With this change came some expanded authorities. It took some convincing but I managed to secure a change to our jacket policy for 5 specific jackets. It is my opinion that short range BR is the core of Berger's existence. I believe strongly that we need to do everything we can to strengthen this core. Changing the jacket prices is one of many efforts.
How many different action, stock, barrel, scope, trigger and other product makers are there in BR shooting? How many other bullet makers do we compete with every day? I can assure you that we are doing nothing to stop anyone from making jackets or bullets.
Then our change in prices will have little to no effect on their sales. If this statement is true then the BR shooters will know it and pick the better performer as they always have.
Nothing about our production process has changed. They are still made in the same place, by the same people, using the same material to the same tolerances. Nothing has changed.
Please see the comment above about why our prices changed. Just because someone doesn't like what happens doesn't mean that there is malicious intent behind it.
Two things have changed that will affect availability. The most significant change is that the overall demand for everything in the firearms industry has decreased. This demand surge may not be remembered by everyone but it is a shame that we are being blamed for not making some products available during a time when gunshops were being picked clean. All products were affected to an extent and for a duration that has never been seen before. The other change is my deliberate intent to support and strengthen BR shooting. We will make sure to get and keep these 5 jackets available for that purpose.
We are not selling these jackets at a loss. No smart business would do such a thing. If we can't keep the doors open we are no help to anyone. The difference is the difference between what these jackets are worth to us as bullets and an amount of resources we consider as a shooting support expense (we have several such projects). This change is something I've wanted to do for some time. It was proposed during the discussion about whether or not we would even continue to sell jackets. The fact that there are others making jackets is nothing new. Sierra jackets were and have been available before J4. Hornady came out with their AMP jackets. I believe Jim Ridings made jackets for a while. Is it my fault that no one else has done this until recently? Is it better for BR if I take this price change back because it is perceived as bad timing to a few? I don't think so on both counts.
I understand your frustration and I appreciate why you think we are doing this deliberately to hurt others. I can only hope that time gives us a chance to show you how much we will be doing to strengthen and build BR. If you look at my original post there are several things we are doing to support BR. I also hope that your fears about this damaging others are proven to be unfounded.
Please see the reason for the price increase above. The position on the other jackets is unchanged. The 5 jackets that have been reduced are purposefully meant to support short range BR shooting and will remain available. It is the only concession I could secure. Looking at it from a purely business point of view, we are lucky to have this situation.
I hadn't answered only because I am in the process of running a multi-million dollar company. I've been accused of many things but in this thread it is surprising how many posts claim to know me and who I am. These assumptions are false. Just because someone says I'm the big bad wolf doesn't make me the big bad wolf.
This is all about staying connected to our roots. I believe strongly that a big part of Berger's success is because of who we are. We are BR shooters. This may seem a vague statement to some but in my world being a BR shooter means you care about the details. You put quality first. You do whatever it takes to achieve as close to perfection as can be achieved. You do sweat the small stuff. You care about others who do as well. I am a BR shooter. This is the reason. It just so happens that being a BR shooter in our approach to all types of shooting (where precision matters) has turned into a good way to feed my family and several other families.
I'll close with an observation. There are several things about BR that are either causal or symptomatic of its decline. We have our eyes on all of BR and it is my plan to start bringing cohesiveness and order to this great activity. I won't bore everyone with the details but some of the things I am talking about are evident within this thread.
Maybe I shouldn't care. Maybe I shouldn't worry about it. But I do and I will until they throw the dirt on my face or I just get tired of trying. I don't think the later will end my enthusiasm for this effort.
Regards,
Eric
As far as I am concerned there is no war or issues between IBS and NBRSA. They are two separate organizations that happen to engage in a similar activity. It is no different than the many boxing or other relatable sports associations that exist today. I've shot in one IBS Nationals at Dr. Palmisano's range trying to pick up some easier to obtain Hall of Fame points (didn't work out as hoped). To the best of my memory that is the only IBS match I've ever attended. My home range is Ben Avery in Phoenix, AZ. To my knowledge there has never been an IBS match held there. I haven't looked lately but I believe there are no IBS clubs or matches anywhere in the US except on the east coast. Taking all this into consideration, I am not going to champion a cause for two disconnected organizations. We will focus our efforts on the NBRSA. I encourage anyone or any company to initiate this same effort for the IBS.
I take offense to this statement. I am a student of Walt and he has been a champion for fair pricing his entire life. Our price changes over the years have been based on material costs and our cost of production with one exception I will get to shortly. The link below will show you the significant spike in copper prices that affected our prices over this period.
http://www.infomine.com/investment/metal-prices/copper/all/
The following is something I've shared with anyone who asked so it is not new information. The one exception is when I was in a meeting where it was being discussed that from a purely business point of view, it did not make sense to sell jackets, at all. The math is clear on this point. However, I did manage to be persuasive enough to secure that we would still make jacket available but we were compelled to price them in accordance to what they were worth for our operation. This policy still holds true until another change, and it wasn't the fact that there is other jacket makers in the market.
On Oct 13th I was given the position of President of Berger. I can assure you that this position was hard earned. With this change came some expanded authorities. It took some convincing but I managed to secure a change to our jacket policy for 5 specific jackets. It is my opinion that short range BR is the core of Berger's existence. I believe strongly that we need to do everything we can to strengthen this core. Changing the jacket prices is one of many efforts.
How many different action, stock, barrel, scope, trigger and other product makers are there in BR shooting? How many other bullet makers do we compete with every day? I can assure you that we are doing nothing to stop anyone from making jackets or bullets.
Then our change in prices will have little to no effect on their sales. If this statement is true then the BR shooters will know it and pick the better performer as they always have.
Nothing about our production process has changed. They are still made in the same place, by the same people, using the same material to the same tolerances. Nothing has changed.
Please see the comment above about why our prices changed. Just because someone doesn't like what happens doesn't mean that there is malicious intent behind it.
Two things have changed that will affect availability. The most significant change is that the overall demand for everything in the firearms industry has decreased. This demand surge may not be remembered by everyone but it is a shame that we are being blamed for not making some products available during a time when gunshops were being picked clean. All products were affected to an extent and for a duration that has never been seen before. The other change is my deliberate intent to support and strengthen BR shooting. We will make sure to get and keep these 5 jackets available for that purpose.
We are not selling these jackets at a loss. No smart business would do such a thing. If we can't keep the doors open we are no help to anyone. The difference is the difference between what these jackets are worth to us as bullets and an amount of resources we consider as a shooting support expense (we have several such projects). This change is something I've wanted to do for some time. It was proposed during the discussion about whether or not we would even continue to sell jackets. The fact that there are others making jackets is nothing new. Sierra jackets were and have been available before J4. Hornady came out with their AMP jackets. I believe Jim Ridings made jackets for a while. Is it my fault that no one else has done this until recently? Is it better for BR if I take this price change back because it is perceived as bad timing to a few? I don't think so on both counts.
I understand your frustration and I appreciate why you think we are doing this deliberately to hurt others. I can only hope that time gives us a chance to show you how much we will be doing to strengthen and build BR. If you look at my original post there are several things we are doing to support BR. I also hope that your fears about this damaging others are proven to be unfounded.
Please see the reason for the price increase above. The position on the other jackets is unchanged. The 5 jackets that have been reduced are purposefully meant to support short range BR shooting and will remain available. It is the only concession I could secure. Looking at it from a purely business point of view, we are lucky to have this situation.
I hadn't answered only because I am in the process of running a multi-million dollar company. I've been accused of many things but in this thread it is surprising how many posts claim to know me and who I am. These assumptions are false. Just because someone says I'm the big bad wolf doesn't make me the big bad wolf.
This is all about staying connected to our roots. I believe strongly that a big part of Berger's success is because of who we are. We are BR shooters. This may seem a vague statement to some but in my world being a BR shooter means you care about the details. You put quality first. You do whatever it takes to achieve as close to perfection as can be achieved. You do sweat the small stuff. You care about others who do as well. I am a BR shooter. This is the reason. It just so happens that being a BR shooter in our approach to all types of shooting (where precision matters) has turned into a good way to feed my family and several other families.
I'll close with an observation. There are several things about BR that are either causal or symptomatic of its decline. We have our eyes on all of BR and it is my plan to start bringing cohesiveness and order to this great activity. I won't bore everyone with the details but some of the things I am talking about are evident within this thread.
Maybe I shouldn't care. Maybe I shouldn't worry about it. But I do and I will until they throw the dirt on my face or I just get tired of trying. I don't think the later will end my enthusiasm for this effort.
Regards,
Eric
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mwezell
Mike Ezell
Eric, since you quoted me three times, I feel compelled to point out that I didn't call you, personally, a big bad wolf and that it was not meant as an attack on you or the company you now preside over. It was simply a metaphor...simple as that.
Also, that I'm one of the few that posted here applauding this decision, albeit because it basically reverses what I consider a poor decision to base price off of what it's worth to you, in a finished bullet. I understand it well...I just didn't agree with it and did see it as an aggressive position on Berger's part. Again, I applaud you for reversing the company's position and truly hope you and Berger do very well.
That is all.
Also, that I'm one of the few that posted here applauding this decision, albeit because it basically reverses what I consider a poor decision to base price off of what it's worth to you, in a finished bullet. I understand it well...I just didn't agree with it and did see it as an aggressive position on Berger's part. Again, I applaud you for reversing the company's position and truly hope you and Berger do very well.
That is all.
Eric Stecker
New member
Mike,
For the sake of clarity, my responses were to the ideas communicated not the person (if that makes sense). I wasn't looking at who made the response. I believe discussing ideas is healthy. This is especially true when ideas differ.
I don't hold any ill will towards any person within or outside this discussion. Such things are not productive. My goal is to help people understand what we are doing and why. I assume that people disagree with me. This is normal. If we all believed exactly the same things the world would be a very different place (and weird I believe).
Regards,
Eric
For the sake of clarity, my responses were to the ideas communicated not the person (if that makes sense). I wasn't looking at who made the response. I believe discussing ideas is healthy. This is especially true when ideas differ.
I don't hold any ill will towards any person within or outside this discussion. Such things are not productive. My goal is to help people understand what we are doing and why. I assume that people disagree with me. This is normal. If we all believed exactly the same things the world would be a very different place (and weird I believe).
Regards,
Eric
R.G. Robinett
"That'll never work."
Michael, that's why I keep the shop a nice DRY 68 Deg. F . . oh, and sit in front of a FAN!
I am wondering if, and how much this public announcement will devalue my inventory.
Well, I'll, "go broke" before I, "go broke". RGGoing broke...
Don't know how many truly understood that statement R.G. made - I did.
I don't think anybody has to reduce their price on bullets. You gotta shoot what's shootin' well enough to win and that ain't as easy as it sounds. Also, bullet makers aren't exactly required to lower the price when the jackets go "momentarily" cheaper and I wouldn't expect them to do that.
What's the cost involved in winning a few benchrest matches? I don't know these days but it was a whole bunch a long time ago. To consistently win, you have to mold your life around benchrest shooting.
Don't know how many truly understood that statement R.G. made - I did.
I don't think anybody has to reduce their price on bullets. You gotta shoot what's shootin' well enough to win and that ain't as easy as it sounds. Also, bullet makers aren't exactly required to lower the price when the jackets go "momentarily" cheaper and I wouldn't expect them to do that.
What's the cost involved in winning a few benchrest matches? I don't know these days but it was a whole bunch a long time ago. To consistently win, you have to mold your life around benchrest shooting.
Few thoughts
- No one should ever complain about the price of hand made bullets. Sit down and make a 1,000 first. People talk about how workers in "low cost" countries are taken advantage of, think about what highly trained and skilled bullet makers earn per hour.
- Thanks Eric.
- Private equity. Until you've functioned as a leader with accountability to private equity ownership you may not appreciate the pressures and "influence" they apply. If Eric was burning capacity on real/perceived lower margin products, I'm sure he was pounded at every quarterly review. EBITDA, EBITDA, EBITDA!!!!
- No one should ever complain about the price of hand made bullets. Sit down and make a 1,000 first. People talk about how workers in "low cost" countries are taken advantage of, think about what highly trained and skilled bullet makers earn per hour.
- Thanks Eric.
- Private equity. Until you've functioned as a leader with accountability to private equity ownership you may not appreciate the pressures and "influence" they apply. If Eric was burning capacity on real/perceived lower margin products, I'm sure he was pounded at every quarterly review. EBITDA, EBITDA, EBITDA!!!!
This is a very interesting thread
and a very interesting move by J4. On one hand it seems to bode well for shooters. On the other hand it does not bode well for custom bullet makers who have a large inventory of the higher priced jackets from J4 or any of the new makers. I feel for those guys!
Here is what I am going to do. When I need bullets I will order them from RG and Michael and pay whatever they need to cover the material costs and labor. I want them around next year, the year after and 10 years from now. RG has been my primary supplier for years now. He is as stand up, honest and ethical a business man as I have ever dealt with. When I needed help figuring things out or was in a bullet pinch, he always came through. We all need to support folks like this that provide such a quality and necessary product for our benchrest hobby. --Greg
and a very interesting move by J4. On one hand it seems to bode well for shooters. On the other hand it does not bode well for custom bullet makers who have a large inventory of the higher priced jackets from J4 or any of the new makers. I feel for those guys!
Here is what I am going to do. When I need bullets I will order them from RG and Michael and pay whatever they need to cover the material costs and labor. I want them around next year, the year after and 10 years from now. RG has been my primary supplier for years now. He is as stand up, honest and ethical a business man as I have ever dealt with. When I needed help figuring things out or was in a bullet pinch, he always came through. We all need to support folks like this that provide such a quality and necessary product for our benchrest hobby. --Greg
BountyHunter
New member
Eric,
My point was only IF Berger wants to help BR shooting, do not limit your support and software to only the NBRSA and SR BR. There is a hell of a lot of SR and LR shooters in IBS and PA 1K and a lot more Berger bullets being shot in LR than SR BR.
However, Berger's money and Berger's call how they spend it. Thanks for the support for the sport though.
My point was only IF Berger wants to help BR shooting, do not limit your support and software to only the NBRSA and SR BR. There is a hell of a lot of SR and LR shooters in IBS and PA 1K and a lot more Berger bullets being shot in LR than SR BR.
However, Berger's money and Berger's call how they spend it. Thanks for the support for the sport though.
Jim,
Hang on! Those are in the works! Bart's Premier Benchrest Jackets is doing more to help the long range bullet makers. Ours will be at a reasonable price and available.
We've already helped with short range benchrest by helping J4 decide to cut prices!
I'm also coming out with my own VLD Hybrids!
Bart Sauter
Barts Custom Bullets & Premier Benchrest Jackets
Sorry Eric! I love you man but couldn't resist! Congrats on your promotion!
Hang on! Those are in the works! Bart's Premier Benchrest Jackets is doing more to help the long range bullet makers. Ours will be at a reasonable price and available.
We've already helped with short range benchrest by helping J4 decide to cut prices!
I'm also coming out with my own VLD Hybrids!
Bart Sauter
Barts Custom Bullets & Premier Benchrest Jackets
Sorry Eric! I love you man but couldn't resist! Congrats on your promotion!
Dick Grosbier
Club Coordinator
Hats off to Bart !
Eric Stecker
New member
This post is from the other thread but applies here as well.
Bart,
Thanks for the congrats on my new role. You may be surprised to learn that I regard your announcement as very good news. Our decisions weren't based on anything other than the statements I've made. I am confident that you will be making good products and I will encourage those who use long jackets to get them from you.
We are sincere in all our efforts to strengthen short range benchrest. Your are a friend and I wish you success.
Regards,
Eric
Bart,
Thanks for the congrats on my new role. You may be surprised to learn that I regard your announcement as very good news. Our decisions weren't based on anything other than the statements I've made. I am confident that you will be making good products and I will encourage those who use long jackets to get them from you.
We are sincere in all our efforts to strengthen short range benchrest. Your are a friend and I wish you success.
Regards,
Eric
Tim Singleton
Member
Eric
When will you guys be making another run of 6mm jackets for sale to the BR community?
When will you guys be making another run of 6mm jackets for sale to the BR community?
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Dusty Stevens
Hollow Point Dispenser
Did yall notice how old this thread is?
jackie schmidt
New member
Since someone dug up this thread, I will make a few comments on some of it.
I commend everybodies efforts on the areas discussed.
But in all honesty, there are some very nice solutions to problems that many could care less about.
The problem with Benchrest in general at the moment is not having standardized measuring, or high tech software integrated into a system that allows records and results to be kept.
The problem with Benchrest in general is getting anybody to be a match director so a given club or range can even hold a match.
Checked the South East Region lately?
Some are in a position where from a business standpoint, it is to your advantage to promote Benchrest and other shooting sports. And you are to be applauded for giving back.
But the majority Matches are, more times than not, held at ranges or clubs where 95 percent of the members could care less, and 99.9 % of the work is done by one or two guys.
I would settle for a notepad and a number two pencil to keep track of things as long as there is a range willing to hang targets and let us shoot.
I commend everybodies efforts on the areas discussed.
But in all honesty, there are some very nice solutions to problems that many could care less about.
The problem with Benchrest in general at the moment is not having standardized measuring, or high tech software integrated into a system that allows records and results to be kept.
The problem with Benchrest in general is getting anybody to be a match director so a given club or range can even hold a match.
Checked the South East Region lately?
Some are in a position where from a business standpoint, it is to your advantage to promote Benchrest and other shooting sports. And you are to be applauded for giving back.
But the majority Matches are, more times than not, held at ranges or clubs where 95 percent of the members could care less, and 99.9 % of the work is done by one or two guys.
I would settle for a notepad and a number two pencil to keep track of things as long as there is a range willing to hang targets and let us shoot.
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