Benchrest in Bolivia

M

Migs

Guest
Friends:

Some of you kind folks were helping me with some overpressure issues regarding my 6PPC. The thread got deleted. But I thank you all anyway. I understand the moderator must think "liability" , so OK.

There seemed to be a question about Benchrest in Bolivia: I am a new Benchrest shooter in La Paz, Bolivia and am one of about five 6PPC shooters. But I do have some experience reloading. My two Dillon 1050 presses in 38 Super and 40S&W have had many a thousand rounds run through them. There are at least 25 of us in the various forms of Benchrest in Bolivia. A couple of the better ones have gone to Argentina, Peru and Brazil to compete. We compete in Both Varmint classes, hunter, military rifle and 22 cal Benchrest, using international rules. I am successful in 6PPC and 22 Benchrest, as well as some of the Olympic shooting sports.

I have been reloading and competing in IPSC for the past 25 years. Many thousands of reloads, and also many mistakes! So as far as reloading goes, I'm not as "ignorant" as I was qualified, but maybe so on the 6PPC. For this I apologize.

Oh, and as far as IPSC, I have competed in two world championships (England and Brazil) so some reloading is under my belt.

I really hope that in the future people ask rather than assume before making decisions about my ignorance, experience, or abilities. I am human and have feelings after all.

Thanks again!

Migs
 
Migs

We can start this over.

First, I am the Moderator that deleted the thread. I did this because it turned into a pi--ing match between shooters as to what method was best to cure the problems you were experiencing. All of this with no idea as to your level of expertice. "Just keep bumping the shoulder back untill the bolt closes easilly" is NOT good advice.

Here are a few things you need to know. First, the overall length of your chamber. Next, do you have the tools to accuratly measure how far you are moving the shoulder back upon re-sizing. Next, do you have a full length die that is compatible with your chamber.

Final, keep in mind, much of what we do is simply common sense. Don't just assume that things are correct. The 6PPC as used in Benchrest is more times than not a custom chambering. My chamber might be so different from the shooter next to me that the components will not enterchange. But they are still a "6PPC".........JACKIE
 
Excellent!

I have a few rounds that the rifle came with and shot fine with so I will use these as a dimensional reference for making the new ones. As soon as I have some valid data regarding the chamber I will post.

Again, thanks for the help and for the camaraderie!

Migs
 
First of all, tell us about the rifle, and if there is anything stamped or engraved on the barrel. What sort of measuring tools do you have? Does anyone in your group have a Sinclair International catalog? A lot of the tools and supplies that we use are pictured in it. Here is a link to where you can download or order it. http://www.sinclairintl.com/.aspx/sid=61140/pid=38911/Product/SINCLAIR_CATALOG
There are other places where you can buy these items, but this is a good reference, that that will come in handy in our discussion.
The next thing that I would suggest is that you consider getting a single stage reloading press, and some measuring tools that are not needed for pistol loading. Loading for a pistol on your Dillons is about as close to the practices used to load ammunition for a benchrest rifle as a farm tractor is to a formula one racer. This is not to say that one is better than the other, just that they are very different.
 
Benchrest Bolivia

Just a message to let you know that we do have a World Benchrest Shooting Federation with many countries as members. If there is an interest in Bolivia let me know
and I would be happy to give you the details
email me: graeme@manukastreet.org.nz
Graeme Smith
President.
 
Awesome folks!

To Boyd and you all, this is my gear: I have a 6PPC with a Shilen Select Match 1-15 barrel. I know about Sinclair. It's using some of the measurement tools that I don't have a feel for yet that disconcerts me. I have Wilson dies and a Sinclair arbor press. N133, and Berger 68 gr. bullets and a good powder dispenser. Digital calipers, scale etc. You all need to know the chamber dimension, so I will have to research how to do that. (Can I case fire [like when you prepare cases] and measure the resulting case dimensions?)

To Graeme: Excellent about joining the Federation. I will pass your contact on to our Federation president, since it is he that must do the registration. He doesn't speak/write English well so maybe I can help him. In the meanwhile can you send me the requirements so I can give them to him? mreznicek@pretensa.com

Again -> I remain most grateful to you all for the interest in helping me and promoting the sport worldwide!

Migs
 
Do you have any fired cases? If so, measure the OD of the necks, and let us know what the measurement is. That is not a precise measurement, but it will give us an idea what the neck dimension of the chamber is. What sort of FL die do you have? In the earlier thread, I got the impression that you were using one. Another thing, the twist rate on your barrel may be slow for the bullets that you have. It may be that you will be better off with something that is made on a shorter jacket. What kind of action, stock, trigger and scope does your rifle have? Also, is it a product of local gunsmithing, or is it an import?
 
I have a Redding Body Die M8 - full body sizer die. What is the theory behind full body sizing? It seems that it's use would go contrary to the fit of a case that forms to the chamber. Regarding the twist of the barrel and those bullets: On a good day I can shoot a 1.5 cm group of five shots at 235 meters in a light breeze - which makes me very happy. I know this might not mean much those of you with much experience, but it turns my friends green! So If a different bullet choice can improve that - well - I'm all ears.

I took apart all the loaded rounds I had in order to start from scratch. Would you all recommend trimming to a nominal length?

By the way, this is my workflow so please comment if I should alter something:

1. Put on examination gloves
2. Clean cases by hand or by tumbler.
3. Mark cases for rifle with blue or red magic markers on base and separate cases according to rifle.
4. Lubricate outside cases on RCBS silicone pad
5. Full body size cases on Rock Chucker IV press
6. Trim cases on Wilson Trimmer
7. Use brush to clean insides of necks and remove debris from tumbler and burnt gunpowder
8. Lubricate inside necks with mica
9. Run cases though Wilson depriming/neck sizing die using Sinclair arbor press. Use large base cone side down.
10. Prime cases
11. Check that powder charge coincides with bullet to be used
12. Dispense powder to cases
13. Check that bullet seater die corresponds to bullet seating depth of rifle
14. Stack bullet on case
15. Seat bullet using small Wilson base and bullet seater die
16. Fill out reloading label and add to box when transferring bullets.
 
First of all, thanks for the information, I think that we are making progress. Secondly, you will probably understand that we use English units, and that given that there is so much measurement involved in our sport, it may be handier to pick up an inexpensive dial caliper that reads to .001 inch as well as a 1 inch micrometer (that reads to .0001). These will coordinate with the information that has been published and which you will probably receive on this forum. The next thing that you will need is an attachment for your dial (or digital) calipers that is designed to measure how much your case's shoulders are pushed back when you body or FL size them. A similar attachment to measure the overall length of loaded rounds from a reference point on the curve of the bullet's ogive, rather than its tip (these tend to be irregular) would also be a good item to pick up. The reason that I have continued to inquire about the dimension of your rifle's chamber is that most 6PPCs have what are referred to as "tight neck" chambers, that require that case necks be turned to create the desired clearance between the necks of loaded rounds and that part of the chamber. If the clearance in this are is too small, there can be pressure issues, and if it is too large, accuracy, and brass life can suffer. You asked why one would want to use a body die. It is the usual practice to shoot PPCs at pressures that will rather quickly result in sticky bolt operation. To keep this from occurring, closely fitted FL dies (usually of a design that accepts Wilson style bushings) are used, usually every time that cases are reloaded. Because of the close dimensional relationship between chambers and dies, and the attention that is paid to how far back cases shoulders are "bumped", there is very little dimensional change when a case is FL sized, so the fit is still very good, and bolt operation is as it should be, without tightness that may gall the bolt's locking lugs. In your case, if the body die is small enough where it sizes the base of the case, to get the same effect as a FL bushing die, you would neck size the cases, and then body size them. In the thread that was deleted, I recommended that you purchase a single stage press. Do you have one? Also, what is the size of the bushing in your Wilson neck die. The dimension of its inside diameter is written on one end (the top) of the bushing, in thousandths of an inch. BTW for those that read this who use English units, the group that he mentioned would convert to .591 inch at 257 yards. which is under quarter MOA, quite respectable given the increasing role that the wind plays as distance increases. Rereading your post, one thing occurs to me. Tumbling cases may not be a good idea for this application. I suggest that you discontinue the practice in favor of hand cleaning, unless you are actually using a vibratory case cleaner, in which case there is little chance of harm to the ends of the case necks, but still, little reason for this step. I simply remove powder fouling from case necks with 0000 steel wool and wipe them off with a paper towel or clean rag.
 
Hi Boyd:
I use a vibratory tumbler with media, not a tumbler. The neck bushing is 0.258" I will use English units from now on. I don't have the two add ons to the caliper so I will have to order those. My full length body die does not have a neck bushing. Should I get one like that? The Wilson deprime die has the neck bushing in my case.
Interesting about your cleaning method. I tend to go overboard cleaning the case. Is it only the neck that needs cleaning? Not the body?
I do appreciate your help!
Migs
 
In competition Benchrest group shooting 99.9999% of the shooters load at the range, so that they can adjust their loads to keep their rifles in peak tune. There is no time to vibrate cases, nor is their a prettiest ammo award ;-) With the thin necks being so easy to dent, if they hit the concrete, cases are pretty much confined to the bench top or loading bench. Usually, I clean primer pockets, necks, and run an old bore brush in and out of the necks 2-3 times to remove the worst of the powder fouling, but I DON"T want my case necks cleaned of all powder residue. I want a thin, translucent layer of powder fouling left in the necks, so that no bare brass is exposed, because this gives me more uniform bullet seating force. As to die recommendations, Lynwood Harrell makes dies that are bored to shape rather than reamed, and he has a variety of dies for the 6PPC sitting on the shelf, so that he can measure a customer's fired brass, and send the appropriate die, which will take the same bushing as your Wilson neck die. If you barrel has some life left in it, you may want to order one. For now, wait till you get set up to properly measure shoulder bump and then you can determine if your body die will get the job done for one half of a two step sizing operation. The area that we will be looking at is whether the back of the die is small enough to actually reduce the base of your fired cases by a small amount. If it does, other than the inconvenience of two steps, you should be good to go. Based on your bushing size, I am going to make a wild guess that you may have a .262 neck chamber. I still would like to know what a fired neck measures. I can do the metric conversion if needed, but I need it to the equivalent accuracy of .001 inch. for the moment, if we assume that it is your chamber neck dimension, your case necks need to be turned to a thickness such that the necks of your loaded ammunition are no more than .261, preferably .260, measured over the heel of the bullet. Do you have any idea where your bullets are seated in relationship to the rifling? In order to better see if there are marks, grasp the bullet of a loaded round in a wad of 0000 steel wool and rotate the round a couple of times, so that the bullet is scored with little marks over its entire exposed length. These small marks won't hurt anything, but they will make it easier to see any rifling marks that happen when the round is chambered. enough for now. Let me know about the dimensions that I asked for. BTW, I did a little on line research. A city of over 800,000 population at nearly 12,000 ft. elevation is well beyond my experience. How is the price of tin holding up these days?
Boyd
 
Hi Zippy06

Yes, my home is at 13,000ft. A couple of the top shooters reload different for matches up here. I'm not good enough to tell the difference, but then, they won the last national.

I will certainly look at the videos.

Many thanks!

Migs
 
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