BAT 3 vs 2 Lug

Although this is not about a BAT, I will mention it because the subject seems to have changed. Another variable is firing pin tip size. I have a viper. They have .062 firing pins. As I understand it, when the action was in prototype stage, tests were done using an Ohler 43, and a strain gauge on the chamber, to look at the pressure rise curves produced when various weight striker springs were used. I believe that the thought was that since the smaller firing pin tip would require less spring weight, to see just how light one could go, given the bolt lift advantage. I believe that tests were done down to about half the spring weight of a Remington (which also has a much longer fall. Evidently there was no sign of a problem, as far as the shape and uniformity of the pressure cure went. Later, when I got my action, I measured its spring at about 19#.

Jumping forward a few years, Greg Tannel started offering a firing pin/spring combination that features a fluted aluminum shaft for a total pin weight that is a little over 60% of the stock unit. Testing by Greg had shown that a heavier spring was needed for this pin, so it came with a 25# spring. My thought was that the lighter weight would produce less vibration. Later an article in PS showed that with this combination, the energy was equivalent to that produced with the factory parts, that the momentum was significantly reduced. When I made the change, I noticed that cross hair movement when dry firing was reduced, and It seemed that there might have been a slight improvement in group size. I should also mention that earlier testing showed that this was also affected by which rear bag was used. (Recently, I found that m newest rear bag showed no cross hair jump with the same test (no case).) Since it has been a while since I made the change (during which time I have had no problems) my next move will probably be to do another test of the stock parts with the new bag. I will also try the heavier spring with the stock pin. One thing that has changed since the first test is that I have been using a couple of wraps of thick teflon tape on the shroud threads, to damp vibration. I do this despite the fact that my shroud fit seems to be good, as an added measure toward vibration reduction. (There was an earlier thread on this topic, in which in at least in one instance this showed improvement at the target.) In summary, I agree with those that think that there is more to ignition than simply setting primers off. Beyond that there seems to be a lot of guessing based on the dreaded anecdotal information.:eek: I will continue to follow threads related to this topic with great interest.
 
Thanx tra

RE: POST # 54

:confused:THANX TRA, I WAS WONDERING THE SAME THING

:confused:Seems like one can't ask a simple question without it going off on a plethora of tangents.:confused:

:confused:If you're new to the sport, as I am, it is really discouraging when the experts go off on unrelated rants and turn a simple question into a complicated issue.:confused:

:confused:I'm more confused now than I was before asking the question.:confused:

:confused:I guess there is no BLACK & WHITE in this game but rather multiple shades of gray between.:confused:
:confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused:

Shinny
 
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Seems like one can't ask a simple question without it going off on a plethora of tangents.:confused:

What makes you think they were tangents? Assume they weren't.

If you're new to the sport, as I am, it is really discouraging when the experts go off on unrelated rants and turn a simple question into a complicated issue.

What makes you think the *rant* is unrelated? Assume it is.


I guess there is no BLACK & WHITE in this game but rather multiple shades of gray between.

Well, withing a certain range, that's absolutely correct. So while no one is going to tell you a BAT 2 lug is better than a BAT 3 lug, I think everyone who shoots benchrest would tell you that you'll be better off with any benchrest action than with a Winchester Model 70 -- for benchrest. Before you get mad at at that example, it has come up.

Look at it this way: If there really were "secret stuff" all the best shooters used, they'd have to hide that in the equipment lists, or it wouldn't be secret anymore. Either there is one hell of a conspiracy out there, or equipment choices involve compromises with no clear answers. Take your pick.

Turn *your* rant around: if you get confusing answers, perhaps you asked the wrong question. "Should I buy a BAT 2-lug or BAT 3-lug" is sort of like asking if you should marry a blond, brunette, or redhead. You'll not get a consensus, and the discussion may range a bit . . .

Edit:

In one way, it is a very good question, in that it brings up interesting things. It's only "wrong" if you have to have a yes-no answer.

However, if anyone starts with the blond-brunette-redhead topic, I'm going to stay out of it. There is always a chance my wife may stumble across one of my posts . . .
 
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I think you misunderstood me!

Charles,

I suggest you read you're reply # 66, before reading this.

Please don’t take offense to my post, but I think you may have lost sight of my ORIGINAL question. May I most humbly reiterate?

Additionally, Poster # 67 should also read my post again……Perfect example of how things get twisted…..…
=========================================================
MY ORIGINAL POST:

BAT 3 vs 2 Lug
Want to order a Bat action for a switch barrel gun, but before I did thought I had better ask the experts for some opinions?

Any pro / cons of the 3 lug vs 2 lug actions?
============================================================
Now with that said, I only asked for OPONIONS, not SUGGESTIONS, as to what I should buy.

When answers to my basic question started to go off on tangents (Around Post #11), I couldn’t figure what the point was, relative to my question. Obviously, Post #54 from TRA had the same thought, huh?

  • Does a Bat S or SV come in a 3 lug…Not according to BAT, so what the point?????
  • Does primer ignition have anything to do with my question?????
  • Does firing pin tip size have anything to do with my question?????? ETC,ETC,ETC.
Maybe all these things mentioned do, however, I guess I’m to new to get it.

Oh, and by the way…Post #55??????????????

It would be great if you folks that have been around for some time could realize that guys like me haven’t. We still remain simple and think simple, at least for the time being.

I suppose I could have stopped reading when the answers went askew; however, thought there may be something helpful in a later post….very confusing.

Again, please don’t take offense to any of my posting as I’m just a small fish in a big sea, trying to get into the game from the bottom.

Thank you in advance for you kind understanding.:eek:

Shinny……….:eek:

PS:
Only dogs get mad…………:mad:
 
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thanks Jackie, and the rest of you fellas! I for one have enjoyed this topic very much. This topic has broadened my mind a bit, and i will start looking for these subtle differences. I am in the process of building a new 6ppc just like the one i have always wanted. I will cut no corners with this build. No used parts, no short cuts taken. I will have these mods done to this rifle. I will be curious to see if it shoots as well as my already proven Bruno rifle.
Shinny, Like said above, there probably isn't any correct answer. My suggestion would be to enjoy the wealth of knowledge that has been disused here. This is free info from fellas that have been doing this for a lot longer than you or I combined. Apply the information, or at least keep an open mind about it. Pay your dues before you start making demands, or complaints! Most importantly, take life easy and enjoy the sport! You being new to all this has you at a disadvantage. Whatever rifle you build this year, will most likely not be the one you will have in three years from now. If you stick with it anyway. After a while you will find that your ideas, and needs will change. Examples would be, stock design, port configurations barrels and so on. This game is extremely hard to win at, so you may even give up who knows? I hope you stick with it, but be prepared for a lot of aggravation and maybe even a little disappointment. It all depends on how you approach this game. I look at all this like this. I enjoy the people, and i enjoy the fine rifles. I also enjoy the reloading and time at the range. Winning isn't a real high priority of mine. Sure its nice but, i look at it as a bonus, not a need! You may feel different, you only know! I can tell you one thing though. if something like this post going a bit off subject gets you aggravated, or uncomfortable maybe this isn't a game for you? If your new, as you say you are, buy a nice used rifle and don't worry to much about all this other stuff just yet. It will come, i promise you that!! I challenge myself with my shooting. I have always been a fair shot no matter what discipline i have chosen. I have traveled the country shooting sporting clays, and trap/skeet, shooting darn near 800 rounds a week just for the weekends tournament. I got to the point were that wasn't fun anymore. I wont go through all that again with this game.
I like to shoot Small groups, so my challenge to myself is how can i do this consistently time after time. When i figure all that out maybe i will win afew more matches??? Enjoy yourself and take it easy!! Lee
 
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Please don’t take offense to my post, but I think you may have lost sight of my ORIGINAL question. May I most humbly reiterate?
Given your original question, why do you think people suddenly began talking about ignition issues? Whim? Let's assume not.

Are you aware of Wilbur's rules/guidelines about posting on BR Central?

And to further muddy the waters, even if there is an ignition issue with one action (opinions seem to vary), there also seem to be fixes.

Maybe I can help you in another way. I know Bruce Thom, at least casually. If you have concerns, ask him. When he says "Buy the Best. . . ." he really means it, it is what he believes. He won't lie to you. He listens to customers. He may occasionally get a bit optimistic about delivery time, but that's a benchrest tradition.
 
................................ May I most humbly reiterate? ...............

…...........................…Perfect example of how things get twisted…..…


..................Now with that said, I only asked for OPONIONS, not SUGGESTIONS, as to what I should buy.

Oh, and by the way…Post #55??????????????

QUOTE]

Well bless yer heart dear but it don't all SOUND so humble from this end........

So I'll vent too. I don't understand folks who'll throw a question out on the wind and then critique the answers as 'suitable' or not.

You got some GREAT answers here me' man. Answers from real shooters. Just because you don't currently see the relevence doesn't make a thing irrelevant. So, ask another question. Ask for clarification. Or just let it go...... If you really want "simple" maybe something like dominos or shuffleboard would be more your game.

al
 
Al, Shinny -- I'm not venting. I'm trying to find a nice way to say "don't be as thick as a post!"

One of Wilbur's rules is to not overly praise or condemn people or products. Back in 1995 or so, on an earlier incarnation of this forum, I got in a bit of trouble for praising Dave Tooley too highly. OK, I can see it. If someone or something is "so good," it implies the others aren't quite as good. And that's more often a matter of happenstance or taste than truth. One way to take at a statement like "Tooley is the best" is "Borden isn't as good" -- and of course, that's nonsense.

It's a matter of degree. There is another internet site, that in my view, never has anything bad to say about one of their advertisers. Wilbur runs more of a "keep it down to a dull roar" site. And don't take this paragraph as a criticism of BAT products. I've already said my piece about Bruce Thom, and a look at the equipment lists of the top-10 at any match shows how good BAT products are. As far as my personal opinion goes, I have four BAT actions, and they are not for sale.

So the comments on the actions should be taken as a discussion that sometimes gets technical.
 
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Charles,

Tried to email you personally, however, none of you're contact info is listed.

Would love to talk with you via phone. If this is a option, please forward me you phone number, time zone and best time to call to: (shootershinny@pa.metrocast.net)

If not, could you please tell me why?

Thank you in advacne for your consideration.

Shinny
 
For what it's worth Shinny:

Three years ago I decided to built a VH rifle. I wanted to make it on the best action I could get for the job I wanted it to do. I observed some of the best shooters and determined that a BAT B, 2 lug RLR was the best action for the job I wanted it to do.

I had previously owned a BAT B RL HBR rifle that is a Dream to shoot. Everything about that action is great except it doesn't have a right eject port, which I have come to love.

I have owned a bunch of BR rifles over the past 10 or so years and I will have to say that the BAT and the new Borden RLR I have are very close to being the same. I would give the edge to BAR still because of the way the bolt fits but my Boorden HV is a freakin Lazer. If I were much of a VFS shooter it would be Stylin.

In my view, the function a person wants trumps form or astetics. I wanted a model B Bat for my VH rifle because I saw how well Dave Thomas's rifle works and I like the multi flat SS looks; a double whammy, if you will.

HOWEVER : After reading what German had to say about the Long Action VS the Short action I am wonderong if, perhaps, my Borden shoots so freaking well because it is a Long actiuon? The Borden/ Robertson, I think, Stock is alos a wonderful thing, in my estimation.

SOOOO: My recommendation is a Long BR Action Whatever your choice is with two lugs. If three lug actions were the hot setup Wichata would own the market :). AND, If I hadn't seen what German said in this thread I woulda never thunk there may be an advantage to a Long Action :)
 
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Shinny,
Getting back to your original question, what is the rifle to be used for, and what caliber(s) is it to be chambered in?
 
He may occasionally get a bit optimistic about delivery time, but that's a benchrest tradition.

Charles.
This is the most polite explanation of Benchrest delivery times I have ever seen.
In BR it seems if a Gunsmith or Manufacturer quotes you 6 months and actual delivery is 7-8 months he is on time , 9-12 months he is a little late. After say a year it is actually considered late.

Dick
 
Seems like one can't ask a simple question without it going off on a plethora of tangents

If you're new to the sport, as I am, it is really discouraging when the experts go off on unrelated rants and turn a simple question into a complicated issue

Shinny
3 lug vs 2 lug is not a simple question.
Actually it is a very simple question but the answer is both subjective and complex.
 
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Charles.
This is the most polite explanation of Benchrest delivery times I have ever seen.
In BR it seems if a Gunsmith or Manufacturer quotes you 6 months and actual delivery is 7-8 months he is on time , 9-12 months he is a little late. After say a year it is actually considered late.

Dick

Only once did I see an exception. I ordered an action and was told 6 months. 4 Weeks later I got the call! Good thing I didn't have to save up for it, eh?
 
Shinny - In response to your original post here is my opinion-

If you want a BAT, then get a B model. Have a top BR gunsmith to go over it. Also have him tweak the fire control with tungsten weight and new spring. Simple as that.

(FYI In addition to BAT Bs, I have owned a 3 lug AND the short SV. My opinion is that the B is the way to go)
 
Boyd

Boyd,

To answer your question I would like a switch barrel 6PPC-30BR (HV).

Was told by Daryl @ BAT bolt face will work for both (Eject).

Since starting this post have decided on a BAT MB/MF LRL that will be installed into a Scoville stock.

I want to thank ALL who posted, ever those whose answeres were way over my head.

Special thanks to those who answered my question as asked.
 
Shinny, you don't want an MB, but a B...the MB is too large for a light gun should you ever decide to use it as such.
 
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