just curious to know if there has ever been any side by side testing showing were a 3 lug action has the potential to be more accurate than a 2 lug action. I love my buddies 3 lug bat. The bolt throw is a lot less than anything i have. I can see were that would save on gun movement and speed. i dont have any plans on running out and buying a 3 lug action anytime soon or anything. I guess i just kinda wonder what the hole idea behind the 3 lug action is? Like i said i can see some advantages, but is there a difference in accuracy? Bat website is a bit vague, and not that it matters a ton to me, just more curious than anything is all. The old rem 722 had multiple lugs on the back end of the bolt, and i have always thought that was a superior design over the more common rem 700. On the rem 722 i had you could see by the wear marks that all the lugs were not even making contact. I am more than sure that the bat lugs all make solid contact. I am pretty new to the custom action thing, but my buddies 3 lug BAt with a broughton barrel is the most accurate rifle i have ever seen. It is truly amazing to me how well this rifle shoots, not to mention he is a pretty good driver!!! I thought is might be interesting to talk a little bit about. Thanks fellas!! Lee
BAT 3 lug vs BAT 2 Lug
- Thread starter skeetlee
- Start date
Boyd Allen
Active member
Many years ago, a noted gunsmith, highpower competitior and author, Creighton Audette, wrote an article, that was published in Precision Shooting (back in the days before it had any color printing) that described experiments that he had done with a .308 match rifle, shooting ammunition that was loaded using heavily sized(by Benchrest standards) brass. Everyone who is interested in the theory of accuracy should read that article. In it Mr Audette showed that unevenness in case wall thickness, toward the back of the case (that he was able to accurately measure with a gauge of his own design) is detrimental to accuracy and results in cases being made crooked by FL sizing, what he called banana shaped. In addition he proved that by orienting rounds in the chamber so that cases thin sides were indexed to the same place, that accuracy was better than with random orientation. He also demonstrated that orienting cases so that their thin sides were aligned with the locking lugs, gave superior accuracy as compared to orientation that was at ninety degrees to the lugs. From this he concluded that actions with three or more lugs were at an accuracy advantage when shooting ammunition such as he used in his test. IMO the conditions that we experience in the typical Benchrest rifle are significantly different from those in his test. We have better brass, and our sizing dies are a much closer fit to our chambers. For these reasons the advantage of three lugs over two is not so clear, and must be balanced against fact that cocking the same spring with a sixty degree bolt lift, requires greater force than with a ninety degree lift. To minize this difference, BAT uses a roller cocking piece on their three lug actions. Excellent shooters use both two and three lug designs.
J
j mckinnie
Guest
Boyd
My DS has the roller cocking piece too.jim
My DS has the roller cocking piece too.jim
Stephen Perry
New member
Harvey Donaldson
In my Handloader No 2 July-August 1966, Harvey Donaldson who some credit with the beginnings of BR wrote an article in his series 'Yours Truely' that establishes what Boyd is giving Audette credit for. Donaldson properly gives Mann the credit for his work on uneven brass causing out-shots as Harvey called them, we call them flyers. That being uneven neck thickness and subsequently uneven case thickness needs to be considered in case selection.
In Harvey's case he was wringing out accuracy in case selection and man did he show a difference on paper. Like Harvey said he had a one of the all day long .225 Winchesters that shot 1/2" when brass was used with no selecting. When he selected brass out by spinning his groups went down to .3. Creighton had to have read the article and continued with the case selection process adding indexing.
When what they had back in the 50's forward was generic uneven brass to work with allot of selecting out being done, common amomg those that had case spinners. One of my early bullet providers Tom Metzger relayed the process of going through 500 cases to select out maybe 3 ot 4 lots of 20 enough to last a couple seasons the rest bagged up and sold to Varmint shooters. As my closest mentor Jerry Thornbrugh would say guys that ragged on the 6x47 for being a tempermantal child in the BR World were those that didn't bother to select out cases by spinning using 1/10 mics to check for body uneveness. All Jerry's boxes for 6x47 have numbers on them allot .0006 -.0008 this way he kept cases together by his selection. I have all his 6x47 cases, boxes and dies as a housecleaning when he sold me one of his 6x47 rifles. This his first a 788 action Hart barrel Canjar set trigger smithed by another icon of days past Arvie Martin. It was a tough deal Jerry made me promise I would never sell the gun I still have it. That was back in 1993 price $100. I cherish the 6x47 and shoot it a couple times a year when we get together to shoot. Will be doing this next Wednesday at Lytle Creek Range when I give Helen and Jerry their Christmas present, always something they can drink probably a bottle of Jim Beam they share with each other. Helen and Jerry are the love birds of the SW Region that most know. Jerry is 79 Helen is 71, married 55 years.
Stephen Perry
Angeles BR
In my Handloader No 2 July-August 1966, Harvey Donaldson who some credit with the beginnings of BR wrote an article in his series 'Yours Truely' that establishes what Boyd is giving Audette credit for. Donaldson properly gives Mann the credit for his work on uneven brass causing out-shots as Harvey called them, we call them flyers. That being uneven neck thickness and subsequently uneven case thickness needs to be considered in case selection.
In Harvey's case he was wringing out accuracy in case selection and man did he show a difference on paper. Like Harvey said he had a one of the all day long .225 Winchesters that shot 1/2" when brass was used with no selecting. When he selected brass out by spinning his groups went down to .3. Creighton had to have read the article and continued with the case selection process adding indexing.
When what they had back in the 50's forward was generic uneven brass to work with allot of selecting out being done, common amomg those that had case spinners. One of my early bullet providers Tom Metzger relayed the process of going through 500 cases to select out maybe 3 ot 4 lots of 20 enough to last a couple seasons the rest bagged up and sold to Varmint shooters. As my closest mentor Jerry Thornbrugh would say guys that ragged on the 6x47 for being a tempermantal child in the BR World were those that didn't bother to select out cases by spinning using 1/10 mics to check for body uneveness. All Jerry's boxes for 6x47 have numbers on them allot .0006 -.0008 this way he kept cases together by his selection. I have all his 6x47 cases, boxes and dies as a housecleaning when he sold me one of his 6x47 rifles. This his first a 788 action Hart barrel Canjar set trigger smithed by another icon of days past Arvie Martin. It was a tough deal Jerry made me promise I would never sell the gun I still have it. That was back in 1993 price $100. I cherish the 6x47 and shoot it a couple times a year when we get together to shoot. Will be doing this next Wednesday at Lytle Creek Range when I give Helen and Jerry their Christmas present, always something they can drink probably a bottle of Jim Beam they share with each other. Helen and Jerry are the love birds of the SW Region that most know. Jerry is 79 Helen is 71, married 55 years.
Stephen Perry
Angeles BR
Last edited:
Eddie Harren
Member
722
I believe you might be a tad bit confused on the Rem 722. They have 2 lugs just like a 700. It was the 788 that had rear, multiple lugs.
I believe you might be a tad bit confused on the Rem 722. They have 2 lugs just like a 700. It was the 788 that had rear, multiple lugs.
Mr Harren you are correct! It was late when i typed this last night. I most certainly meant 788. thanks for the certification. That's the first thing i noticed this early Monday morning.
So does it take more gun movement, or force to cock the 3 lug BAT than say a similar 2 lug BAT action? Someone mentioned that you have less bolt throw to accomplish the same amount of cocking as with a standard two lug. Is that a good thing ? It would seem to me , that it really isn't an issue?? Like i said fellas , i just thought this would be an interesting topic. plus i just enjoy talking and reading about this stuff!! Thanks for the replies. Have a wonderful day guys!!! Off to work!! Lee
So does it take more gun movement, or force to cock the 3 lug BAT than say a similar 2 lug BAT action? Someone mentioned that you have less bolt throw to accomplish the same amount of cocking as with a standard two lug. Is that a good thing ? It would seem to me , that it really isn't an issue?? Like i said fellas , i just thought this would be an interesting topic. plus i just enjoy talking and reading about this stuff!! Thanks for the replies. Have a wonderful day guys!!! Off to work!! Lee
Last edited:
jackie schmidt
New member
Skeet
Matches, and championship aggs, are being shot with both Two Lug and Three Lug Actions.
Yes, in theory, the cocking force on a three lug should be a little harder than that of a two lug, simply because you are trying to accomplish the exact same amount of work with less bolt travel. You don'y get something for nothing. But, the people at Bat seem to have solved this with other innovations, as there are many shooters who shoot the Bat three lug with great success.
I thing all of this stuff about the advantages of one over the other is mostly hype. With the precision that is incorporated into todays products, it is really a toss up as to which is "better".
Many of us have the means to actually check actions. I have checked several different brands through the years, and regardless of what you read, or what someone says, none are "perfect". Some are better than others. Some, as anybody who has ever taken the time to actually check things will know, are barely a "kit".
If I told you that there are a couple of very well known, (and highly skilled), gunsmiths who make a pretty living "fixing" many of the maladies that plague some custom actions, you would say, "no way". But, it is one of those little "secrets" that nobody talks about. Or, nobody is willing to talk about.
At least, not in public.........jackie
Matches, and championship aggs, are being shot with both Two Lug and Three Lug Actions.
Yes, in theory, the cocking force on a three lug should be a little harder than that of a two lug, simply because you are trying to accomplish the exact same amount of work with less bolt travel. You don'y get something for nothing. But, the people at Bat seem to have solved this with other innovations, as there are many shooters who shoot the Bat three lug with great success.
I thing all of this stuff about the advantages of one over the other is mostly hype. With the precision that is incorporated into todays products, it is really a toss up as to which is "better".
Many of us have the means to actually check actions. I have checked several different brands through the years, and regardless of what you read, or what someone says, none are "perfect". Some are better than others. Some, as anybody who has ever taken the time to actually check things will know, are barely a "kit".
If I told you that there are a couple of very well known, (and highly skilled), gunsmiths who make a pretty living "fixing" many of the maladies that plague some custom actions, you would say, "no way". But, it is one of those little "secrets" that nobody talks about. Or, nobody is willing to talk about.
At least, not in public.........jackie
I'm a 3 lug guy myself, but that's just a matter of preference. I built a score rifle a couple years back on a 700 that I sleeved, and it shoots as well as any gun I have. Once I got used to the 3 lugs with the port configuration I like however, its become awkward to shoot anything else at matches. Anyhow, I agree with Jackie about none of the actions being perfect. I've not met an action that I didn't have to "fix" in one way or another so it would perform to my expectations. That said, we BR shooters are extremely demanding of our equipment. Bolt cycling and ejection are the two items that need the most attention in my experience. If these actions were going on High Power/F-class rifles, where shooting speed is of no consequence, then I wouldn't need to mess with them, but BR brings out the flaws in every piece of equipment we have. As far as squareness, I've had to "blueprint" a few custom actions as they weren't true from the manufacturer. The amount these actions can be out would surprise the average shooter that thinks we buy customs because they are perfect...
J
Jay Idaho
Guest
Firing pin spring pressure?
Has anybody measured the poundage of the 3-lug firing pin springs at "cocked" length. If they are slightly lighter in pressure and have a longer firing pin travel, that would make them seem easier to cycle.
Or maybe not, I dunno.
Jay, Idaho
Has anybody measured the poundage of the 3-lug firing pin springs at "cocked" length. If they are slightly lighter in pressure and have a longer firing pin travel, that would make them seem easier to cycle.
Or maybe not, I dunno.
Jay, Idaho
Jay, yes they are easier to cycle with a lighter spring. BUT, a lighter spring aint necessarily a good thing. Ignition issues crop up with too light a spring. Its a fine line getting the right balance of spring tension along with firing pin travel and weight, while also looking for a lighter lifting bolt. I've done a fair amount of experimenting, but not nearly the amount of some of the real Gunsmiths out there.
J
j mckinnie
Guest
Thanks Fergus
I think I read that before but it was good to read again
I think I read that before but it was good to read again
jackie schmidt
New member
Jay
The trend in the past years has been toward heavier firing pins, (or at least heavy enough), heavier springs, and more travel.
A few years back, a good friend had a new action that was just slick as grease, opened with hardly any effort. The only problem was, it did not shoot worth a hoot.
We increased the firing pin spring weight to about 21 pounds, and modified the hanger so that the firing pin had at least .210 inches of travel. The Rifle suddenly came to life.
Look at a Panda. It's hard to find one that doesn't shoot right out of the box. They will have at least 1/4 inch travel, a pretty stout spring, anlong with a firing pin that has adequate weight. Those guys got it right from the start, and stick with a proven concept.........jackie
The trend in the past years has been toward heavier firing pins, (or at least heavy enough), heavier springs, and more travel.
A few years back, a good friend had a new action that was just slick as grease, opened with hardly any effort. The only problem was, it did not shoot worth a hoot.
We increased the firing pin spring weight to about 21 pounds, and modified the hanger so that the firing pin had at least .210 inches of travel. The Rifle suddenly came to life.
Look at a Panda. It's hard to find one that doesn't shoot right out of the box. They will have at least 1/4 inch travel, a pretty stout spring, anlong with a firing pin that has adequate weight. Those guys got it right from the start, and stick with a proven concept.........jackie
i have had conversations with my gunsmith about what Mr Schmidt has said about not all custom actions being square. I guess what comes to my mind then is this. If a custom action isnt square and is barreled how can they shoot so darn well? How important is this really? Why spend all that extra money on a rem action having it squared? Im not saying i would ever do that, but it makes me wonder. Is it all about the barrel?? My smith has checked several action and he was pretty surprised by what he has discovered. I dont remember all the actions he said he checked one afternoon, but Surgeon was one of them and it was way out. The only action that was spot on, was the rem 700 that he trued a couple days before hand. He loves surgeon actions and highly recommends them for tactica type shooting. he didnt like what he found!! The surgeon action was his personal action and it shoots like a house of fire. I dont know!! LOL!!! Thanks for all the replies!! Lee
Lee, One thing to keep in mind is this....if an action has several areas that are not 'true', which of those areas hurts accuracy? And which ones don't? Since that's a hard thing to determine before the action is put into use, it's best to check that everything and correct as needed. Paying a truly savvy accuracy 'smith for an hour or so of their time to check out a new action is money well spent.
I have two custom actions that after checking, needed nothing done to 'em. Another custom action I own has a different story. It came to me from a good pal and had been plaqued with issues since day one. It was literally headed to the dumpster via the chop saw. I'm not kidding.
He's an honest man and wouldn't sell this thing to anyone that wasn't fully aware of what they were getting into. He offered it to me as a 'project' since I knew the history of this possessed piece of stainless. The demons were exorcised by Stan Ware and it now shoots as well as anything. The problem was not big, in and of itself, but it affected a lot of areas...ignition and trigger.
You can't have any nagging thoughts about mechanical accuracy issues when you go to the firing line. You need to know that the rifle is going to go 'bang' every time. That if a shot goes out, it's not because of a mechanical issue...blah, blah, blah.
Competitive BR shooting brings out the weak areas pretty quickly. Most are constanly pecking away at some area to improve performance, gun handling or whatever area is giving them gas at the time. Once that's smoothed over, they find another area to work on. The small, minute stuff stuff that's worked on would surprise the heck out of most casual onlookers. Sometimes these result in pretty obvious things...the 30BR, locked up scopes, carbon fiber stocks come to mind. Sometimes it's not so obvious...'wet cored' bullets, for example.
As good as some of the Tactical rifles are, the difference between one and a competitive BR rifle is like comparing a Honda with a fart can exhaust system to an NHRA Pro Stocker. They are just that different.
Enjoy your BAT and good shootin'. -Al
I have two custom actions that after checking, needed nothing done to 'em. Another custom action I own has a different story. It came to me from a good pal and had been plaqued with issues since day one. It was literally headed to the dumpster via the chop saw. I'm not kidding.
He's an honest man and wouldn't sell this thing to anyone that wasn't fully aware of what they were getting into. He offered it to me as a 'project' since I knew the history of this possessed piece of stainless. The demons were exorcised by Stan Ware and it now shoots as well as anything. The problem was not big, in and of itself, but it affected a lot of areas...ignition and trigger. You can't have any nagging thoughts about mechanical accuracy issues when you go to the firing line. You need to know that the rifle is going to go 'bang' every time. That if a shot goes out, it's not because of a mechanical issue...blah, blah, blah.
Competitive BR shooting brings out the weak areas pretty quickly. Most are constanly pecking away at some area to improve performance, gun handling or whatever area is giving them gas at the time. Once that's smoothed over, they find another area to work on. The small, minute stuff stuff that's worked on would surprise the heck out of most casual onlookers. Sometimes these result in pretty obvious things...the 30BR, locked up scopes, carbon fiber stocks come to mind. Sometimes it's not so obvious...'wet cored' bullets, for example.
As good as some of the Tactical rifles are, the difference between one and a competitive BR rifle is like comparing a Honda with a fart can exhaust system to an NHRA Pro Stocker.
They are just that different. Enjoy your BAT and good shootin'.
-AlBoyd Allen
Active member
OK, I'll bite. What the heck is a wet cored bullet?
Jeez..now I've gone and done it!
Hunkerin' down here for a good old three day Forbidden Zone blow. Am thinkin' I might need gloves.......
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
NWS Sioux Falls, SD
Point Forecast: Sioux Falls SD
43.56°N 96.73°W (Elev. 1424 ft) Mobile Weather Information | En Español
Last Update: 6:06 pm CST Dec 23, 2009
Forecast Valid: 7pm CST Dec 23, 2009-6pm CST Dec 30, 2009
Hazardous weather condition(s):
Winter Storm Warning
Hazardous Weather Outlook
Light Snow Fog/Mist
26 °F
(-3 °C) Humidity: 88 %
Wind Speed: NE 14 MPH
Barometer: 29.95" (1016.2 mb)
Dewpoint: 23 °F (-5 °C)
Wind Chill: 14 °F (-10 °C)
Visibility: 0.75 mi.
Tonight: Snow. Low around 23. North northeast wind between 11 and 15 mph. Chance of precipitation is 100%. Total nighttime snow accumulation of around 4 inches.
Thursday: Occasional snow and areas of blowing snow. High near 24. Blustery, with a north northwest wind between 15 and 22 mph, with gusts as high as 31 mph. Chance of precipitation is 90%. New snow accumulation of around 2 inches.
Thursday Night: Snow and widespread blowing snow. Low around 20. Blustery, with a north wind between 22 and 29 mph, with gusts as high as 37 mph. Chance of precipitation is 100%. New snow accumulation of around 5 inches.
Christmas Day: Snow and widespread blowing snow. High near 21. Windy, with a north wind between 29 and 31 mph, with gusts as high as 41 mph. Chance of precipitation is 100%. New snow accumulation of around 4 inches.
Friday Night: Snow likely and widespread blowing snow. Cloudy, with a low around 14. Blustery, with a north northwest wind between 24 and 29 mph, with gusts as high as 38 mph. Chance of precipitation is 70%. New snow accumulation of around 1 inch.
Saturday: Snow likely and areas of blowing snow before noon, then a chance of snow after noon. Cloudy and blustery, with a high near 18. Chance of precipitation is 70%. New snow accumulation of less than 1 inch possible.
Saturday Night: A slight chance of snow before midnight. Mostly cloudy, with a low around 5. Chance of precipitation is 20%.
Last edited:
jackie schmidt
New member
Skeet
When you see an add that says "such and such won the bazzoka shoot out with our action". Keep in mind, the shooter that finished 150th might have been shooting the same action as well.
You are not going to get very many shooters on this Forum to get into the old "which action is better" thing. The reason. It tends to be a rather touchy subject. Many of us may have one action of a particular brand that shoots really well, but have two more of the same brand that have never been part of a winning combination.
Here is a true story. A few years back, a very well known shooter was about to purchase one of the new Carbon Fiber stocks, one that required you to send the action to the stock maker so he could do the glue in. The shooter sent an old crusty looking Panda. The stock maker asked if he was sure he wanted that old action in that beautiful new stock. The shooter replied, "that action is a proven winner".........jackie
When you see an add that says "such and such won the bazzoka shoot out with our action". Keep in mind, the shooter that finished 150th might have been shooting the same action as well.
You are not going to get very many shooters on this Forum to get into the old "which action is better" thing. The reason. It tends to be a rather touchy subject. Many of us may have one action of a particular brand that shoots really well, but have two more of the same brand that have never been part of a winning combination.
Here is a true story. A few years back, a very well known shooter was about to purchase one of the new Carbon Fiber stocks, one that required you to send the action to the stock maker so he could do the glue in. The shooter sent an old crusty looking Panda. The stock maker asked if he was sure he wanted that old action in that beautiful new stock. The shooter replied, "that action is a proven winner".........jackie
Doug Kennedy
Hemi Road Runner
As good as some of the Tactical rifles are, the difference between one and a competitive BR rifle is like comparing a Honda with a fart can exhaust system to an NHRA Pro Stocker.
-Al
If not a prostocker,at least a D-Dart