Barrel PreTreat For HBN

Good news. Got the following from Tom Madden...


> Your order will ship tonight. If you could post
> on the web sites that the particle size of the AC6111 Bore
> treatment are smaller than I anticipated and I am only able
> to fill an 8 oz. jar with 1 ounce (by weight) of
> material. I thought I would be able to fill it with 2
> ounces. No such luck. So, the AC6111 will be
> offered in a 0.5 ounce jar and 1 ounce jar.
>
> Thanks again for all of your support and
> patience. I look forward to working with gun guys who
> are serious about shooting.
>
> Take care,
>
> Tom Madden
> TAI Lubricants
> PO Box 1579
> Hockessin, DE 19707
> USA
> (302) 326-0200
> (302) 326-0400 fax
> nyoil@aol.com
> www.lubekits.com
 
My order arrived. Very nicely done. Much more satisfying than being in a snack-sized zip lock.

It's obvious that I over bought on the AC6111 grade for barrel treatment. One 2 oz will last forever.

I have coated my first batch of bullets with the HCPL grade. Don't know if it's true or not, but on looking at 10 bullets done with it versus the old 70nm, the HCPL appears to yield a more thorough coating. At least the coating is more visible.

Bottom line: I'm happy with it.

For the curious, here is what I'm doing:

1. I purchased the Lyman Moly Coating kit. Just threw the moly away. The media are small ceramic cylinders. The agitation is vibration rather than tumbling as in some kits.

2. I get both the media and the bullets warm. The media goes into the oven at 170 degrees. The bullets warm up on the "warm zone" eye on my stove in a big ceramic soup cup inside a coffee filter and I put a dish towel over it to keep the heat in.

3. I put the media bowl on the unit, sprinkle 1/4 teaspoon (maybe too much) HCPL evenly over the top of the media and run it just a second to distribute the stuff.

4. Then, in go the bullets. I run it for 3 hours.

5. I sift out the bullets while wearing a dust mask. Put them in an old hunting sock (that my GSP chewed the top on) and "pan" them back and forth for a couple of minutes.

6. Then I wash up and have a couple of girl scout cookies and a glass of milk.

For what it's worth,

Greg J.

Edit: I use Francis and Paul's deal with dissolving some of the AC6111 in 91% alcohol for pretreat. I soak a patch and run it through after I clean. The first round appears to go about 1/2" high at 200. After that, everything seems to be in the group.
 
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Friday a box containing Boron Nitride Grade NX-1 arrived. It is listed as having .9 micron sized hBN. We will test some this year and report on it. Thank You Jon.

Paul
 
My order arrived. Very nicely done. Much more satisfying than being in a snack-sized zip lock.

It's obvious that I over bought on the AC6111 grade for barrel treatment. One 2 oz will last forever.

I have coated my first batch of bullets with the HCPL grade. Don't know if it's true or not, but on looking at 10 bullets done with it versus the old 70nm, the HCPL appears to yield a more thorough coating. At least the coating is more visible.

Bottom line: I'm happy with it.

For the curious, here is what I'm doing:

1. I purchased the Lyman Moly Coating kit. Just threw the moly away. The media are small ceramic cylinders. The agitation is vibration rather than tumbling as in some kits.

2. I get both the media and the bullets warm. The media goes into the oven at 170 degrees. The bullets warm up on the "warm zone" eye on my stove in a big ceramic soup cup inside a coffee filter and I put a dish towel over it to keep the heat in.

3. I put the media bowl on the unit, sprinkle 1/4 teaspoon (maybe too much) HCPL evenly over the top of the media and run it just a second to distribute the stuff.

4. Then, in go the bullets. I run it for 3 hours.

5. I sift out the bullets while wearing a dust mask. Put them in an old hunting sock (that my GSP chewed the top on) and "pan" them back and forth for a couple of minutes.

6. Then I wash up and have a couple of girl scout cookies and a glass of milk.

For what it's worth,

Greg J.

Edit: I use Francis and Paul's deal with dissolving some of the AC6111 in 91% alcohol for pretreat. I soak a patch and run it through after I clean. The first round appears to go about 1/2" high at 200. After that, everything seems to be in the group.

Greg, could you post a picture of the bullets that you have coated? Your method for tumbling is quite different than ours. We only tumble for 20 to 25 minutes and in steel #4 shot, then we sift them and run them back and forth in a towel.
 
RE-treat

My order arrived. Very nicely done. Much more satisfying than being in a snack-sized zip lock.

It's obvious that I over bought on the AC6111 grade for barrel treatment. One 2 oz will last forever.

I have coated my first batch of bullets with the HCPL grade. Don't know if it's true or not, but on looking at 10 bullets done with it versus the old 70nm, the HCPL appears to yield a more thorough coating. At least the coating is more visible.

Bottom line: I'm happy with it.

For the curious, here is what I'm doing:

1. I purchased the Lyman Moly Coating kit. Just threw the moly away. The media are small ceramic cylinders. The agitation is vibration rather than tumbling as in some kits.

2. I get both the media and the bullets warm. The media goes into the oven at 170 degrees. The bullets warm up on the "warm zone" eye on my stove in a big ceramic soup cup inside a coffee filter and I put a dish towel over it to keep the heat in.

3. I put the media bowl on the unit, sprinkle 1/4 teaspoon (maybe too much) HCPL evenly over the top of the media and run it just a second to distribute the stuff.

4. Then, in go the bullets. I run it for 3 hours.

5. I sift out the bullets while wearing a dust mask. Put them in an old hunting sock (that my GSP chewed the top on) and "pan" them back and forth for a couple of minutes.

6. Then I wash up and have a couple of girl scout cookies and a glass of milk.

For what it's worth,

Greg J.

Edit: I use Francis and Paul's deal with dissolving some of the AC6111 in 91% alcohol for pretreat. I soak a patch and run it through after I clean. The first round appears to go about 1/2" high at 200. After that, everything seems to be in the group.

How often are you going to retreat the barrel?
 
Paul, I'll coat some bullets, take pictures and post them this weekend.

Kim, I treat the barrel every time I clean it. I use a patch soaked with the 91% alcohol and AC6111 HBN solution as the last step in my cleaning just like I used to use Lock-Ease.

An interesting factoid is that the first shot has, so far, gone a skosh higher than the group. The first shot is the only one that doesn't go into the group.

FWIW,

Greg J.
 
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Back in November there were lots of questions about hBN, some from phone calls some from e-mail. I wrote a quicky reference article then, and forwarded it to Three website hosts, Benchrest.com, Bench-talk.com, and 6mmBR.com. Stan and Ryan Ware posted it on their Website, Bench-talk.com and I was just made aware of it's exhistance a few days ago. Here is a link there for anyone that wants to look.

Stan and Ryan run That website and interestingly enough have a live chat section, most week nights between 7 and 10 Eastern you will find a few shooters chatting BR.

http://www.bench-talk.com/blogs/sta...agonal-boron-nitride-hbn-use-by-shooters.aspx

Paul
 
To Pbike:

1. I believe this from Stan Ware's article - or his take on what you and he are doing as a pre-treat with AC6111..."use about one teaspoon in 16 ounces of alcohol". That noted, assuming that is a level teaspoon - is it? - what exactly are you using for your "alcohol". I have "rubbing alcohol" (drugstore-bought) which the label notes is "70% isopropyl" and the balance "purified water". It is in a 16 oz HDPE bottle. So if I just buy a fresh bottle of it, and dump in a level teaspoon of AC6111 and shake well before each application, will I be ready to go?

2. I'm a bit unclear on coating with HCPL. I will be shooting 130 and 140 gr Bergers (6.5mm). I have an old Dillon tumbler (used ages ago with corn cob for 45 ACP cases) and would be more than happy to buy and clean out a couple of 16 oz Skippy jars to use with #4 steel shot. So...how much steel shot and how much HCPL per what quantity of these bullets? Then tumble the jars "on top of" the corn cob media for how many minutes at what speed (if more than one is available)? And, do you just sift out the bullets and shot and reuse the shot and remaining powder (assuming anything is left) or?

3. There was a post by Moderator Jackie Schmidt in this thread about JUST using the pre-treat and NOT coating the bullets. I found no response. This is quite obviously the easiest and most economical way to proceed...which results in what - same result, 50% of doing both (measured how), or? Please advise.

Thank you.

Ok,

1) It's not Stan's Article, It was submitted to Stan by ME to be posted on his website to answer some of the questions, It was alos submitted to this website and is linked in this lengthy thread somewhere.

2) in the article I metion that we used 90% alcohol with 1 tablespoon hBN Grade ac6111. and that we use that mixture to treat our barrels after cleaning, and before shooting. Yes we bought a 16 ounce plastic bottle of 90% and added a tablespoon of ac6111.

3) for the coating, this is the easy way. get a turbo 600 bowl from lyman's website (cheap) add 5 pounds of #4 steel shot and a screwdriver tip of HCPL, run it for a while to pretreat the steel shot. Use this bowl only for tumbling bullets. Then rinse bullets in acetone and dry on a towel then put bullets in stell shot add one screwdriver tip of hcpl run for 25 minutes. sift bullets clear of the shot run the bullets back and forth in a towel to polish the excess off the bullets. The bullets will be hard to pick up (slippery, you are done!

4) we coat bullets and pretreat our bore I don't know how to be any clearer It has helped us. It's not the only way, it is the way we choose to do it though, and it is what we have had good results with. In the past we have dealt with Jon Leist, in the future, we will be dealing with Tom Madden. They are listed in the article, and throughout this thread for contact information.

Paul
 
Here is the pdf file I sent to 6mmBR.com, BrCentral and Bench-talk.... I don't know how teaspoon got in the article.... we use a Tablespoon per 16 ounces of 90%ISOPROPYL alcohol. It might have been in my proofreading I sent Stan the wrong version? who knows? we use a Tablespoon.
 

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  • Boron document.pdf
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Paul,

I got my isopropyl alcohol at the local CVS. It's 91%.

BTW, I finally coated some more bullets and have pictures. I have to do some PC shuffling to get them uploaded. It'll be before the weekend.

Greg J.
 
has anyone heard from the guy that is suppose to be the sales rep for this stuff ?

mike in co
 
OK, here we go. Now, I'm not recommending this. I'm just saying that this is what I do. It appears to work for me.

Background: I bought the Lyman vibratory moly coating combo. It uses small ceramic cylinders rather than steel shot or similar.

Step 1: I warm the bullets in a ceramic soup cub on the "warm spot" on our stove top.

IMG_0087.jpg


At the same time, I warm the ceramic media in the oven at 175 degrees:

IMG_0088.jpg


I leave them in for like 30 minutes or so:

IMG_0089.jpg


I put them in the media and tote them down stairs:

IMG_0090.jpg


I use HCPL grade HBN. 1/8th teaspoon for 100 bullets. I run them for three hours. I run them for three hours because that's what the Lyman kit prescribed for coating with moly. I might be able to get away with less, but I'll experiment after I'm more comfortable.

IMG_0091.jpg


The come out looking like this:

IMG_0092.jpg


I put them in an old hunting sock that my GSP chewed a hole in:

IMG_0094.jpg


they end up looking like this and being slick as owl stuff:

IMG_0095.jpg
 
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I was over at Dad's house, (where the bullet tumbling stuff and Boron is) and yes, the Alcohol that we use for Pretreating of the bore is Isopropyl and it is 91% not 90%. The idea was that the 91% is less water than the 79%, less water in the mix the better.

Greg I like the way your bullets come out of the hunting sock, very smooth. We use a white towel, and we could probably stand to (buff) them a bit more to get that shine, ours have a little more white to them than that.

If I were going to do any pointing up operations, or Meplat trimming to bullets that I were treating with hBN, I would do all thework on the bullets prior to tumbling. I have a Meplat trimmer from Montour County (really nice stuff), and next time I do long range bullets I will trim before adding the hBN. For short range, I don't mess with it.

Paul
 
Great thread! I thought you'd like to see how we do it. I'm copying this from my own forum. (Sumplace else:D)

---------------------------------------------------------------

I took a piece of 1/2" thick Sintra (expanded PVC), routed a channel on the back to fit exactly over the rim of a tumbler, cut two holes the exact size of the lower 1/3rd of two plastic jars and cut a center hole for the shaft and wing-nut. (no comments, Will)
Slide the jars in till they're tight, add the .177 steel balls and impact coat for 3 hours. You can even leave the media in the bowl if you want to clean brass at the same time with this setup.
This setup keeps the center of gravity low and the shaking is much harder and sharper without the cushion of small jars floating in the media.

Tumbler002.jpg


Tumbler003.jpg


Tumbler001.jpg


MolyB.jpg


MolyD.jpg


hBN004.jpg


After towel rolling.

hBN005.jpg


We're not, but if you want to send yours to me I'll coat them for you Matt. You'll have to do your barrel.
(From Dad's info)


Clean the bore/chamber/throat with Wipe Out or a like non-ammonia based copper remover. Use a carbon remover specific like Montana Extreme or a like carbon remover in the chamber and throat.

If you have one, inspect the bore for complete copper removal with a bore scope.

Borescope1.jpg


If not, be safe and use the Wipe Out with a nylon bristle brush, working up a heavy foam and let stand for a few hours.

Dry clean completley with patches or clean swabs.
Take a new .30 caliber cotton swab, or take your old ones and run them through the laundry or dishwasher. Dry completely.

Short switch back to square one:
You'll get your negative 5 micron hBN in a container with a plastic tape seal around the outside. Open it with extreme care and only long enough to fill a small, sealable pill bottle 1/3rd full. Re-seal the container immediately. Re-apply the exterior tape seal fully and tightly. Store at room temps in a secure place. Spill that container in a room in the house and your wife will be using a bat on you for weeks to come.
(No, I didn't, and my wife uses Darning Eggs instead of bats)

Screw the swab to the end of a cleaning rod just long enough to run the bore, open the hBN pill bottle, carefully roll the swab in the hBN, (close the hBN bottle immediately) insert into the bore from the breech end if possible. If your rifle won't acommodate that, run it from the muzzle end. Go all the way through and then work it gently back and forth while slowly withdrawing the swab.
Once its out, leave it alone. The first few impact coated projectiles fired through the bore will do the ceramic coating for you, and that's it. You've done it. From that point on fire only impact coated projectiles through that rifle. Cleaning is done with dry patches, no chemicals at all.
For the chamber/throat area, use the right sized swab to fit into each and use Montana Extreme or a like carbon remover. Don't run any cleaning solvents down the bore.
You can also do the alcohol/hBN bore treatment. (See previous post)

If you feel the need to clean the bore once in a while, cool...... but make sure you use the clean swab and hBN process again. It only takes a few minutes. I unscrew the swab and keep it inside the pill bottle so that it remains uncontaiminated.
To understand how it works, save me a bunch of typing and read the patent.

I'll post process pics of the Moly setup on the weekend.

The new Dillon Commercial Vibrator/Tumbler.
The large motor easily handles 4 larger jars, two for Moly coating and two with corncob. The CNC cut top is 1" thick and is a perfect fit.
The red dust inside is from its first run cleaning 500 Lake City LR cases. 500 at one time. I was surprised it handled that many.

tumblers001.jpg


2 Moly jars and two corncob jars on the same top, or 4 Moly jars if you're doing a lot of coating. 30 seconds to one minute dwell time in the corncob. We do 30 seconds.

tumblers003.jpg


The Frankfort Vibrator handles two larger jars for hBN impact coating instead of 4 small ones.

tumblers004.jpg


tumblers005.jpg


100 washed/cleaned 175 SMK's, 50 in each jar with the hBN impact coated .177 steel BBs. .8gr -5 micron hBN in each jar, 3 hours on vibrate and then tumble, load and fire.:D

-------------------------------------------------

Latigo
 
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Cleaning Procedure

Would you guys explain your cleaning procedures using BN bullets.
How often...what solvents. How do you work on the carbon ring?

tks
 
Well, today I decided to try the...................

bore treatment, this was BEFORE I read Latigo's post, naturally. I got a fresh bent-neck oiler by Dewey, filled it to within a quarter inch from the neck. And, since I really didn't like the idea of water in the bore, I used grain alcohol( HIC!, NO, I didn't drink it) I used a Grace P7 screwdriver blade and scooped up 6-8 little loads, it mixed readily w/the alcohol, and it STAYED mixed. I timed it for 20 minutes motionless, then 40, and it never sank to the bottom or required shaking, it just looked like milk. I ran two patches down the bore making 6" strokes fore and aft, to the muzzle. I think I'm going to read the patent too. I do think it'll work better with the patch or swab dry, or dry-ER. I did get a very even coating. It will be quite some time before I get to the range, but good or not, I'll let'cha know how it go. ;)
 
Two questions

Is there a convenient source for a sieve sized well to separate #4 shot from .22+cal bullets? Or do I have to make my own?

Those who are recoating their barrels: Is there any evidence this is necessary, or is this just precautionary? Based on the patent it sounds like it shouldn't be necessary once you've fired a good coating on a clean barrel.
 
gentlemen,
i was at a 1000yd match this weekend and was asking about coatings...hbn specifically. one person shooting 6.5 somthing, said he had a pressure issue with hbn and not wiht moly. anyone experienced any negative issue with hbn ?
thanks
mike in co
 
I'm too dumb to know about pressure signs. The primers are the same and the extraction is the same and the targets look the same. Cleaning is a snap. Other than that I have nothing to report. And Michael try to make it to the IBS Score Nationals next week. It's a blast.
i was gonna try for the 1000 yd nationals....but its just too far....drove the costs up.
( don't tell any one i'm actually building a BOLT gun for 1000 yd competition.....it will ruin my ar reputation)

mike in co
 
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