Hi P5200, all of these guys gave you good advice, as i knew they would. I really liked Virg's opinion. My advice would be to order a Midway and a Sinclair catalog, as they contain lots of info. While you are spending money like crazy, don't forget to buy a tool box for all of this stuff. Sooner or later you will have other rifles and calibers, tools, and all sorts of stuff! Good Shooting, Pete
barrel cleaning questions
- Thread starter p5200
- Start date
M
Montana Pete
Guest
I purchased my first accurate rifle last summer, and at that time first started reading this and other forums having to do with shooting and maintaining accurate rifles.
For one thing, if a person goes out and reads the links supplied here, he gets dramatic differences in what different shooters do.
At first I went overboard and tried to imitate some of the methods described on the forums. It was taking me almost as long to clean my rifle as I spent shooting it.
I finally said, "this is ridiculous." Now I use the following method -- it appears we all more or less have to work out our own.
1. Dip a brass brush in nitro solvent and work through the bore from the breech about five times -- up and back. This is to free up the carbon residue. No bore guide is used.
2. Swab the bore with patches dipped in nitro solvent. Stop when the patches look clean -- about three to five patches. End this phase by running a dry patch through to remove excess nitro solvent.
3. Dip a patch into copper solvent until it is sopping with the stuff. Then run it through the bore a couple of times to wet the bore good with it. Have your muzzle pointed down to keep the stuff out of your action. Put the gun aside, muzzle down, for two to four hours.
4. Run a couple of dry patches through to eliminate most of the copper solvent. The first patch usually comes out green as grass. Then run a couple of patches with nitro solvent through to get ALL the copper solvent out. The stuff is fairly sticky, and I do not think it is easy to get it all with a dry patch.
5. Run one or two final dry patches to remove any excess nitro solvent. Finish up with one patch dabbed with a light machine oil such as 3-in-1 oil.
6. Wipe off all exterior metal surfaces with a small cloth dampened with a quality machine oil. Do not put your fingers on metal surfaces when replacing your rifle in the den.
NOTE: A friend of mine out West is an expert on fine rifles. He builds them, fixes them, and shoots them. He swears a non-corrosive copper solvent rusted his barrel, despite that the bottle said "non corroding." The damage was significant enough he could see pitting with a bore scope. He suggested that if you use copper solvent at any point when cleaning, finish up your cleaning with a light film of oil.
Anyway, this whole goat-rope about rifle cleaning reminds me of a couplet by the poet Alexander Pope--
"Men's judgments are like their watches--
None runs just alike, yet each believes his own."
For one thing, if a person goes out and reads the links supplied here, he gets dramatic differences in what different shooters do.
At first I went overboard and tried to imitate some of the methods described on the forums. It was taking me almost as long to clean my rifle as I spent shooting it.
I finally said, "this is ridiculous." Now I use the following method -- it appears we all more or less have to work out our own.
1. Dip a brass brush in nitro solvent and work through the bore from the breech about five times -- up and back. This is to free up the carbon residue. No bore guide is used.
2. Swab the bore with patches dipped in nitro solvent. Stop when the patches look clean -- about three to five patches. End this phase by running a dry patch through to remove excess nitro solvent.
3. Dip a patch into copper solvent until it is sopping with the stuff. Then run it through the bore a couple of times to wet the bore good with it. Have your muzzle pointed down to keep the stuff out of your action. Put the gun aside, muzzle down, for two to four hours.
4. Run a couple of dry patches through to eliminate most of the copper solvent. The first patch usually comes out green as grass. Then run a couple of patches with nitro solvent through to get ALL the copper solvent out. The stuff is fairly sticky, and I do not think it is easy to get it all with a dry patch.
5. Run one or two final dry patches to remove any excess nitro solvent. Finish up with one patch dabbed with a light machine oil such as 3-in-1 oil.
6. Wipe off all exterior metal surfaces with a small cloth dampened with a quality machine oil. Do not put your fingers on metal surfaces when replacing your rifle in the den.
NOTE: A friend of mine out West is an expert on fine rifles. He builds them, fixes them, and shoots them. He swears a non-corrosive copper solvent rusted his barrel, despite that the bottle said "non corroding." The damage was significant enough he could see pitting with a bore scope. He suggested that if you use copper solvent at any point when cleaning, finish up your cleaning with a light film of oil.
Anyway, this whole goat-rope about rifle cleaning reminds me of a couplet by the poet Alexander Pope--
"Men's judgments are like their watches--
None runs just alike, yet each believes his own."
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Thanks for the detailed steps on cleaning Pete. I got my new Rifle Basix sav-2 installed but haven't shot it yet. looking forward to it though. Funny thing about the instructional DVD, they point out #320 grit wet or dry emery paper as one of the needed tools but, I never seen them use it in the Video? seems too rough for polishing trigger parts though. Thanks Again! 
O
Old Gunner
Guest
Oh, Yea!!!!!!!!!!
Do you know about bolt grease?????
The lugs should be greased. Just a little bit from a syringe.
http://www.midwayusa.com/browse/Bro...d=17550&categorystring=10612***678***19867***
pick your flavor.
And one of these.
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=109658
To clean chamber and raceway.
After brushing. Dry patches. Then a patch with Lock-ease, break-free, rem oil, something on the last patch. Very lightly.
When you pull out the bore guide. The chamber mop is used to dry the chamber. Then the bolt raceway is cleaned.
Little grease on the lugs. Little oil on the bolt. Reload or storage.
First shot is called a fouler. Next would be 2 sighters. Ready for hunting.
Now a story. Over on Glocktalk.com.
A "government sniper". Would not say who or where. Showed a picture. .308 Win. 3 shot 3" group. At 578y. Rifle had not been cleaned in 1500 rounds.
Another picture .338 Lapua Mag. 5" group 800M. Not cleaned in 900 rounds.
My memory is a little off. Numbers are close though.
I had not cleaned my G17 in 1500 rounds. That is how, that thread, got heated.
I only cleaned it, because the brass was getting scratched. Bowling pins still fall.
http://benchrest.netfirms.com/Barrel Break-In.htm
Long range shooters of the early 20th century would leave their bore uncleaned throughout the shooting season, then rebarrel rather than try to clean and use that barrel again.
This was mainly due to damage caused by trying ,all too often unsucessfully, to remove Cupro-Nickel fouling. Even copper fouling of some bullet jackets of the day proved very difficult to remove without damage to the bore.
Some of the Modern Sniper rifles use especially cut rifling designed to offset the effects of fouling and erosion. The grooves are rounded at the corners which provides the best seal of jacket to bore. Also Martensitic Stainless Steels are nearly impervious to damage from fouling.
I've heard it said that the requirements of the sniper differ from those of the Target shooter in that the Sniper must know that his bullet from the first shot of the day will have the same point of impact as the bullet of the last shot he fired days or weeks earlier, no fouling shots or sighting shots in combat.
The Manuals do say that the rifle should be cleaned every time its fired, but theory equals practice only in theory.
I'll have to look it up, but I think the bore diameter can increase due to firing with a thick layer of metal fouling. Be found to have increased when cleaned that is. Before cleaning effective bore size can decrease by one thousandth or more due to copper build up, but its seldom and equal thickness and fouling can wash out unexpectedly in patches causing accuracy destroying blowby.
Hi Pops.
Your 3rd para. is BS.
If you are an old gunner. Than you would know that the Government, runs, low cost bidder gets the job. They buy off the shelf.
MIL-SPEC went out with William Jefferson Clinton.
A barrel is a barrel.
A Defeatocrat is a loser. Is a Liberal. Is a commie fascist pig.
Anyway like I said on the other thread.
it's apples and oranges.
Some people shoot more sighters, at a match, than some people shoot all year.
F
french
Guest
Chamber mop
Ask your Doctor or wifes/girlfriends gynocologist if he can spare a vaginal swab or two. These are honestly the best chamber (rifle) cleaners i've ever used. They have a 8-10 inch plastic handle with a soft cotten batting swab on the end which works perfectly for cleaning out a chamber after removing the bore guide. Know kidding!
Mike
Ask your Doctor or wifes/girlfriends gynocologist if he can spare a vaginal swab or two. These are honestly the best chamber (rifle) cleaners i've ever used. They have a 8-10 inch plastic handle with a soft cotten batting swab on the end which works perfectly for cleaning out a chamber after removing the bore guide. Know kidding!
Mike
O
Old Gunner
Guest
My third paragraph
The rifling type used in the newest of these rifles was developed by Remington and is available to the general public, its called 5-R, notice I'd said "some of" not all.
http://www.remingtonmilitary.com/m24sws.htm
This rifling pattern was suggested long ago by a custom barrel maker (Boots Obermyer?), not sure if he produced any before Remington began mass production.
Leakage at the corners of the grooves resulting in erosion is a long recognized factor in more conventional rifling patterns.
PS
I'm old enough to remember when Uncle Sugar was paying more for toliet seats than the price of a New Plymouth Duster with all the extras.
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I was told or read on here. 10K rounds on the Rem. barrels. .308 Win.
14K is real good. Wonder if you can shoot 1500 rounds without cleaning. Accurately of course.
Why is it a waist I cant stand the blade on the accutrigger and the new one is much, better .p5200. Why did you waste money on a new trigger?????
Why is it a waist I cant stand the blade on the accutrigger and the new one is much, better .
Waste???? You cringe at spending. The cheapest way to clean a bore?????
I have both Accu-target triggers. Very nice triggers.
I also have 2 Jewel triggers.
The blade is a safety device. Similar to the primary safety. Which is the wing nut behind the trigger. Your finger.
I guess your next thread will be which scope? Tasco or Burska?????
Well, hope you enjoy your Savage.
ps. The blade safety is on a lot of handguns. Glock.
And others.
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You sound like you need some medication! I'm easy to get along with but, you're getting awful judgmental and personal! and lots of people replace as they say, the craputrigger. Does everyone on this forum think it's a waste to replace the Accutrigger? seriously I'd like to hear some more opinions because I don't think I did or said anything, to warrant that, verbal abuse!Waste???? You cringe at spending. The cheapest way to clean a bore?????
I have both Accu-target triggers. Very nice triggers.
I also have 2 Jewel triggers.
The blade is a safety device. Similar to the primary safety. Which is the wing nut behind the trigger. Your finger.
I guess your next thread will be which scope? Tasco or Burska?????
Well, hope you enjoy your Savage.
ps. The blade safety is on a lot of handguns. Glock.
And others.
A
abintx
Guest
p5200 ...
A good trigger is like a good putter or a driver in golf. With the right one for you, you can go low [score well].
A trigger is all about feel. The very first thing I did when I got my Savage, I mean within days, was to replace the AccuTrigger with a Rifle Basix SAV-2. Arnold, as you know, doesn't make one of his fine triggers for the Savage.
I never liked the feel of the AccuTrigger. If you don't like something don't attempt to use it because you won't do well with it. Just common sense. Art
A good trigger is like a good putter or a driver in golf. With the right one for you, you can go low [score well].
A trigger is all about feel. The very first thing I did when I got my Savage, I mean within days, was to replace the AccuTrigger with a Rifle Basix SAV-2. Arnold, as you know, doesn't make one of his fine triggers for the Savage.
I never liked the feel of the AccuTrigger. If you don't like something don't attempt to use it because you won't do well with it. Just common sense.
ArtThanks, yeah I like the new trigger much better. being retired/disabled, I build pc towers on occasion for people who want high speed gaming towers and, I just finished one and thought a new trigger might be a good thing to spend my extra money on. got to spend, while the gettings good.A good trigger is like a good putter or a driver in golf. With the right one for you, you can go low [score well].
A trigger is all about feel. The very first thing I did when I got my Savage, I mean within days, was to replace the AccuTrigger with a Rifle Basix SAV-2. Arnold, as you know, doesn't make one of his fine triggers for the Savage.
I never liked the feel of the AccuTrigger. If you don't like something don't attempt to use it because you won't do well with it. Just common sense.
Thanks!
O
Old Gunner
Guest
I was told or read on here. 10K rounds on the Rem. barrels. .308 Win.
14K is real good. Wonder if you can shoot 1500 rounds without cleaning. Accurately of course.
I'd also read that the M24 barrels had been downgraded from an accurate barrel life of 15,000 to the figure of 10,000, but not whether these were the 5-R bores or an earlier pattern.
Accurate life is relative to the requirements. A rifle too worn for 1,000 yard shooting could be useable for closer ranges.
A rifle that still prints Sub MOA at 100 yards can be wildly inaccurate at 600+ yards. Depending on bullet type, twist, and induced yaw.
I doubt anyone would let a rifle barrel go 1500 rounds without at least some cleaning, swabbing out powder fouling but leaving metal fouling undisturbed.
The Long Range shooters of the old days seldom fired more than 500 rounds per shooting season, with 400 being the figure most quoted.
Theres a breakdown of the effects of this many rounds fired without cleaning in a book I downloaded awhile back, either by Townsend whelen or perhaps in Hatcher's notebook, or likely in both.
The Gumint often pays out the yin yang for what it needs, lowest bidder has too often meant lowest quality. The reason no-bid contracts were instituted , and why these have been raked over the coals for the past few years. Some companies are known to be able to deliver the goods, so the military generally prefers to deal with the devil they know.
The remington Bolt Action will be replaced incrementally starting around 2010 , a semi auto design is expected to take its place.
The Dept of Defence will probably give many of the Remingtons to our less well to do allies, after rebuilding and servicing programs.
Our local LEO has received used rifles from the Army in the recent past for SWAT use, so many of the SWS rifles will probably be given or sold to civilian Law Enforcement.
PS
I have a Safety Hammerless revolver with central pivot pinned blade in the trigger, never much cared for it.
My Savage .22 was made shortly before the Accu Trigger came out.
I polished and adjusted it to a fine hair trigger.
I can see where the blade can be a useful safety feature. When I took the rifle out recently I found the trigger was too light for me now, after a long period of not shooting it. I'd lost the touch I'd had when I adjusted it earlier on.
A double stage trigger is a much better safety feature, and can be adjusted to a much finer pull than most would think it could.
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M
Montana Pete
Guest
Hope I won't be accused of heresy, but I have the accu-trigger and like it fine.
It is no better or worse than other triggers, IMHO.
Calling it the "crapo-trigger" suggests very strong emotions about the thing.
Live is too short to go off on the deep end about a trigger. The obvious question-- why did you buy that rifle, then?
You could have bought a Remington.
It is no better or worse than other triggers, IMHO.
Calling it the "crapo-trigger" suggests very strong emotions about the thing.
Live is too short to go off on the deep end about a trigger. The obvious question-- why did you buy that rifle, then?
You could have bought a Remington.
Oh no, I should explain the craputrigger thing a little better That's what I have read it called on other forums Pete but, not what I call them personally. If I were a hunter, that is the trigger I would want because of it's extreme safety factors. But I was raised in the city and was never taught anything about hunting and now, I'm not able due to medical conditions now to hunt if, I knew how. No as far as being called craputrigger those, are not my words. I just asked about tips on a couple of other forums and was told, the first thing you need to do is to get rid of that craputrigger again, not my words or thoughts. And as far as why I bought the rifle, I wanted one for a long time saved up and finally, got one and of course, the Accutrigger came on it. I just like to target shoot and some, people might consider that a waste of time and money since, I have progressed Glaucoma and can't shoot very well anyway but, I have fun. I hope I cleared up the misunderstanding that I myself, don't calle them craputriggers. But, I still, don't think anyone has the right to tell me I wasted my money on the Rifle Basix SAV 2 Trigger any more then I,have the right to tell anyone else, how to spend their money, or that they have waisted their money. I have a Savage 111f in 30-06 with the Accutrigger which, I have no problem with. I just felt I should let everyone know that I, wasn't attacking the Accutrigger just stating what some called it when I was asked why, I wasted my money on the Rifle Basix. I would never ask any of you people why, you wasted your money on anything! I'm sure no one would appreciate it any more then I did. Best Regards.
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Hi P.
Just got back from a Varmint shoot. We shoot at paper varmints. Here's an example. http://www.6mmbr.com/targets.html
6mmbr.com is a really good site. Varmints are at the bottom.
I shoot a Savage Model 12 LRPV .223 rem.
I got a 173/200. Mirage was terrible. Time to change the focus. Last time I got 185/200. Getting old.
Benchrest score local club. Small "b". Last year. Avg. 188/200. No wind flags.
I now have a forend adapter. Score is about the same though.
I could shoot a 6PPC for Varmint. I use it for benchrest score, now. A very nice rifle. My avg. is 197/200.
You could say I wasted good money on the 6PPC. Being used and all.
I pulled the money out of my retirement fund. 10 years from now. That money will be worth a lot more. I hope.
I don't hunt either. Just paper.
Did you read the article from Dwight Scott????
Just got back from a Varmint shoot. We shoot at paper varmints. Here's an example. http://www.6mmbr.com/targets.html
6mmbr.com is a really good site. Varmints are at the bottom.
I shoot a Savage Model 12 LRPV .223 rem.
I got a 173/200. Mirage was terrible. Time to change the focus. Last time I got 185/200. Getting old.
Benchrest score local club. Small "b". Last year. Avg. 188/200. No wind flags.
I now have a forend adapter. Score is about the same though.
I could shoot a 6PPC for Varmint. I use it for benchrest score, now. A very nice rifle. My avg. is 197/200.
You could say I wasted good money on the 6PPC. Being used and all.
I pulled the money out of my retirement fund. 10 years from now. That money will be worth a lot more. I hope.
I don't hunt either. Just paper.
Did you read the article from Dwight Scott????
M
Montana Pete
Guest
p5200--
Thanks for clearing that up. Even if you had coined that term -- and I see you did NOT -- I mean, that's not "wrong" or anything, but as I said, whoever "did" coin that term appears to have been very "bent out of shape" about the accutrigger. I do realize that some shooters just DO NOT LIKE THEM.
I agree that installing a good target trigger can be a real joy. I have a rifle I used for sporter class shooting with a Timney target trigger, and I love it.
One good thing about the accutrigger is that the customer can set it either light or heavy. Unfortunately, I don't think it can be set lighter than about 1.5 lbs. Mine seems reasonably crisp.
Thanks for clearing that up, and I am glad you like your rifles. Maybe with a good scope your glaucoma will not be too bad an impediment to your shooting. I myself am a senior citizen, and at this point I just "compete against myself" rather than get too ambitious.
Best luck --
Thanks for clearing that up. Even if you had coined that term -- and I see you did NOT -- I mean, that's not "wrong" or anything, but as I said, whoever "did" coin that term appears to have been very "bent out of shape" about the accutrigger. I do realize that some shooters just DO NOT LIKE THEM.
I agree that installing a good target trigger can be a real joy. I have a rifle I used for sporter class shooting with a Timney target trigger, and I love it.
One good thing about the accutrigger is that the customer can set it either light or heavy. Unfortunately, I don't think it can be set lighter than about 1.5 lbs. Mine seems reasonably crisp.
Thanks for clearing that up, and I am glad you like your rifles. Maybe with a good scope your glaucoma will not be too bad an impediment to your shooting. I myself am a senior citizen, and at this point I just "compete against myself" rather than get too ambitious.
Best luck --