Are you objective?

[vicvanb]

Looks Like Zippo

(1.) I was asking how many thought they were able to look at facts without interpreting them based on an opinion they have already formed?

How many? After additional posts the answer has emerged--ZERO.

We need to recruit some new participants. The same old lines from the same old faces get tiring after a while. Anyone know of somene new who can contribute something fresh?? PLEASE!

 

[RStiefel]

koginam

I have his book! I remember the interview on 60 minutes. I watched it. I lived in the senators state and voted for him during his campaign for senator. I, like the other citizens of Az. witnessed the things presented and legislated by him. Yes I have made up my mind as to whom to vote for. Neither one. Why all the negative posts about him??? Like I said, I lived in his state and have witnessed it. Have you? Why so many negative posts about Obama? This is simply the way things are when politics is the topic.

 

[koginam]

RStiefel
If you have read his book and seen the interview then how can you incinuate he said he was a war criminal on 60 min., you have to acknowledge the statement was made while he was a prisoner of war and being tortured. not a fresh admission of guilt as you insinuated.

You are crying about the members not being fair, being prejudice, uneducated, and so on, while you are also showing these faults.

Why so many negative posts about Obama? Because he doesn't stand for the same values that most, not all, but most of the members who respond on the topic, if you want to find a more like minded group then go to the democratic web sites and anti McCain sites there you can say anything you want about McCain without any proof to back it up, but here no matter who says it no matter which candidate it is about have your facts correct and be prepared to defend any off the wall statements with sources.

I have not witnessed life under McCain but as many times as McCain has won reelection the majority of AZ. must not agree with you.

 

[RStiefel]

kigonam

The interview on 60 minutes was in his own words. It was NOT the confession he gave to the Vietnamese. The reason for the reelections in Az. is quite clear. Arizona is a predominately a Republican state. I am not going to waste time trying to explain myself. Those who choose not to read his book and view the interview don't want to know the truth. It is much easier to say Obama is bad for our country and McCain is the man. I have clearly listed the sources, and they are available to everyone. These sources back up every word I have said. Both sources are in McCains words, and not the words of his confession in Viet Nam. The autobiography was read and approved by him, and the interview was conducted with his permission. Geeez.

 

[koginam]

RStiefel

John McCain's tortured statement
Actual Transcript: from Oct.1997 interview.

WALLACE: (Voiceover) People who know McCain well say he can hold a grudge. He also has a legendary temper. But if McCain can be hard on his friends and even harder on his enemies, he can also be very hard on himself.

Sen. McCAIN: I m--made serious, serious mistakes and did things wrong when I was in prison, OK?

WALLACE: What did you do wrong in prison?

Sen. McCAIN: I wrote a confession. I was guilty of war crimes against the Vietnamese people. I intentionally bombed women and children.

WALLACE: And you did it because you were being tortured...

Sen. McCAIN: I...

WALLACE: ...and you'd reached the end of the line.

Sen. McCAIN: Yes. But I should have gone further. I should have--I--I never believed that I would--that I would break, and I did.


This doesn't seem to back up your accusations. But shows you to have not read your own sources.
"I am not going to waste time trying to explain myself."
I don't think you could explain yourself.

Still can't spell can you? try cut and paste. I wouldn't mind but I use my real name, so I would appreciate the courtesy of it being spelled right.

 

[RStiefel]

I wrote

a confession. Period, end of sentence.
I was guilty of war crimes against the Vietnamese people. Period, end of sentence.
I intentionally bombed women and children. Period, end of sentence.
And you did it because you were being tortured?
I... (yes?, no?) If you are innocent, you say yes. If you are guilty, you say no. No response leaves a question in everyones mind.


I don't have to go on and rub salt into wounds.
No one will ever know the truth about what was said in his confession, because it has been sealed from the public forever.

 

[Bill Wynne]

a confession. Period, end of sentence.
I was guilty of war crimes against the Vietnamese people. Period, end of sentence.

Mr. RStiefel,

Do you realize that you have entered over 20 entries on this thread. I can tell that you are not gaining any friends or even converts to your arguments. Most of the other entries are directed to you or about you. Don't you think that this is enough?

Concho Bill

 

[RStiefel]

I will give McCain

this:
While I lived in Az, he usually did answer questions honestly and directly.
JM - 1, HO - 0

He did try to make Rumsfeld understand we needed more troops in Iraq.
JM - 2, HO - 0

He does believe in GOD and his bible.
JM - 3, HO - 0

 

[RStiefel]

Bill

Now what? I don't have this luxury as do the others? I count just as many and more from others. I'm not supposed to respond to statements directed to me?

 

[koginam]

RStiefel
He answered yes. the hesitation was because he was interrupted my Wallace while he was answering.
He was talking about the confession given while under torture, he was not saying to Wallace that he was confessing to anything new, how many of us could stand up to the torture he went through or are you going to deny it happened, are you so spiteful and blind that you can't see that, or is the problem with facts that is to much for you to handle.
Did McCain date a girl you liked, steal a ice cream from you when you were little?
You are ignoring facts, or are you just being petty.

I know many people like you, they make up their mind and no facts will change it, they will overlook and distort any facts that don't go along with their assumptions, they will accuse anyone with an opposing view as biased, ignorant, or non objective, they will ask for everyone to get along and be nice as long as it works for them but the first time they find the other sides argument is winning they cry foul.

Your comment about not voting only shows you have no understanding of how important it is, you don't show the respect to those who fought, were maimed, or died to give you the right, their sacrifices gave you an obligation to vote. Vote for anyone you want, I know I am voting for the lesser of two evils but I won't give up that right or any of my rights, I earned them.

 

[RStiefel]

It's called

freedom of choice kigonam. I won't help elect Obama, nor will I cast my vote for the lesser of 2 evils simply because he was a POW. No one has an obligation to vote. It is a right, and a choice. Both of which I am entitled to exercise.

Since it has been made clear that this court allows only a prosecutor and no defense, some other court is in order.

 

[Yote]

freedom of choice kigonam.

RStiefel, do you suffer from dyslexia or are you intentionally trying to piss koginam off with the spelling of his name?

I know of a certain member here that would say that's school girl tactics if you are just trying to irritate him.

 

[jpcampbell]

I had not looked at it as koginam has but I will agree their is an obligation owed to those who fight for us. If you think freedom is a choice then what about the people living under dictatorships do you think they had a choice and that's what they picked?

You have misspelled Koginams name three times, he has been nice about it but you are insulting him now, is this how you want the members here to see you, as a petty little boy who takes cheap shots?

 

[Mr. D]

The allegations about McCain collaborating with the Vietnamese have been around for a long time. Unless someone has a good source of fact that speaks to the issue we might as well get back to swiftboating Obama! No one cares if there's any fact related to charges about Obama!

 

[koginam]

Mr.D
I didn't see any posts here about McCain Collaborating with the Vietnamese, but that's a good way to make an accusation and try to seem above it.

As a matter of fact I do care about any facts you would have on Obama you would like to share, But I ask you to be understanding if I don't agree with you, I have found the best way to present a point here is with listing sources
or stating its your own opinion.
You should also know that I believe Swift Boating is the telling of the truth by persons who were involved, I have seen no evidence that the swift boaters were wrong, if you have proof they lied please contact kerry maybe he could sue them and show us he was a victim.

 

[Mr. D]

Mr.D
I didn't see any posts here about McCain Collaborating with the Vietnamese, but that's a good way to make an accusation and try to seem above it.

As a matter of fact I do care about any facts you would have on Obama you would like to share, But I ask you to be understanding if I don't agree with you, I have found the best way to present a point here is with listing sources
or stating its your own opinion.
You should also know that I believe Swift Boating is the telling of the truth by persons who were involved, I have seen no evidence that the swift boaters were wrong, if you have proof they lied please contact kerry maybe he could sue them and show us he was a victim.

I made the point very clearly that swiftboating against McCain without clear proof is despicable even if it is OK with you about Kerry! Don't try to mischaracterize what I said! Incidentally, review the giant amounts of given by some Republican activists behind the Kerry Swiftboating and the fact the same paid operative was used for the dirty politics as was used during the Vietnam War. You also forget the men who testified for Kerry. It also is a tremendous slap in the face of the military to believe they would give him a medal falsely while men were dying! Some people have no morality in politics as you will see soon against Obama! Of course McCain will know nothing about it just as Bush knew nothing about the attacks on McCain in the 2000 primary and the attacks on Kerry in 2004 General Election! We'll see if McCain keeps it clean or not! Oh, I forgot Obama is a Muslim terrorist in deep cover!

As far as Kerry being able to sue anyone, I hope you know it is nearly impossible to sue when your are a political candidate. Kerry was just too dumb to go after Bush directly and shove his war record down his throat! If Clinton had Kerry's war record he would have compared it to Bush's AWOL record and crushed him. Kerry tried to take the high road and look presidential. Duh!

 

[Bill Wynne]

The allegations about McCain collaborating with the Vietnamese have been around for a long time. Unless someone has a good source of fact that speaks to the issue we might as well get back to swiftboating Obama! No one cares if there's any fact related to charges about Obama!

John McCain has been around in the public eye for over 40 years. There is little about him that is not in the public record. He seems to dance on both sides of the isle. That may be a good thing for unity.

We just do not know that much about Obama, his record is less than clear because it is so short. I care if there are any facts relating to the charges about Obama. The man may be my next President. To do the job right he will need both our support and prayers.

It would be great if we could believe that either of the two candidates could be acceptable to most of us. At least it would be great if we could see our party's man loose and we not hate the man who is President?

Concho Bill

 

[Mr. D]

It would be great if we could believe that either of the two candidates could be acceptable to most of us. At least it would be great if we could see our party's man loose and we not hate the man who is President?

Concho Bill

If McCain wins, he will have my full support as Bush did at the beginning! I actually hoped Bush would be a unifying force as he claimed to be. He was just the opposite. I believe McCain will try to be a unifying force, but he may not listen to anyone on foreign policy and take us the same direction Bush did into more wars of choice and militaristic approaches to everything. I believe McCain was a NeoCon long before Bush even though he has better values.

 

[koginam]

MrD
What you said was "The allegations about McCain collaborating with the Vietnamese have been around for a long time. Unless someone has a good source of fact that speaks to the issue we might as well get back to swift boating Obama!"
and my answer was "I didn't see any posts here about McCain Collaborating with the Vietnamese, but that's a good way to make an accusation and try to seem above it."

You are trying to play the part of the victim another liberal ploy. You brought up an accusation about Mccain Collaborating as if it is what we were discussing in the thread, it was not, had you presented the comment as you did in the last post "I made the point very clearly that swift boating against McCain without clear proof is despicable even if it is OK with you about Kerry!" (not complete quote) it would have not bothered me.

I know of no law in any state that stops kerry from suing. How many men who served with him spoke up for him? Many of us do feel it was a slap in the face that kerry was able to get those medals. I was in Viet nam as a grunt in the 101st when kerry made his speech before congress it made many of us angry, we knew it wasn't true yet the liberal media ate it up, he hurt the moral of thousands of fighting men with his lies. kerry couldn't bring up the Bush being AWOL because it was found not to be true, even though they tried to dummy up some records and give them to the media.

If you would like to start another thread about swift boating lets do it, We can share Facts.

The coward clinton does have a war record starting with his draft dodging, I for one will always wonder what happened to the man that had to take his place. but lets take this to another thread.

 

[Mr. D]

MrD
What you said was "The allegations about McCain collaborating with the Vietnamese have been around for a long time. Unless someone has a good source of fact that speaks to the issue we might as well get back to swift boating Obama!"
and my answer was "I didn't see any posts here about McCain Collaborating with the Vietnamese, but that's a good way to make an accusation and try to seem above it."

If you are unaware of the allegations about McCain it is probably due to where you get your information. It has been out there since his release. Google the subject and you'll see what I mean. Very definite statements have been made about what he signed and said for the Vietnamese, but I've never heard information that seemed objective, so I give him the benefit of the doubt as we should with Obama! I'm just making the point that we should give Obama the same benefit of the doubt as is given McCain. McCain has questions about his record too such as the Keating Five issue.