D
Davey Ditzer
Guest
Agg with 6PPC
For agg shooting to 200 (and maybe 300) yards, the 6PPC is still king!
For agg shooting to 200 (and maybe 300) yards, the 6PPC is still king!
Any Experience with 222 Remington?
- Thread starter Slowshot
- Start date
D
Davey Ditzer
Guest
222 vs. 6PPC
If the difference between 0.1" and 0.3" groups is not important to a shooter, then I would choose the 222 for multiple reasons including economy, ease of reloading and available rifles and barrels. Always have to ask, what do you want the rifle for and what do you want the rifle to do?
If the difference between 0.1" and 0.3" groups is not important to a shooter, then I would choose the 222 for multiple reasons including economy, ease of reloading and available rifles and barrels. Always have to ask, what do you want the rifle for and what do you want the rifle to do?
Aside: I got interested in this thread late, and have read some of it (including the original post), but not all.
If you're not going to compete, the next couple paragraphs are of less value. But anyway...
I'd remark that I've now shot one (1 only) USB score match, the Nationals, so I'm hardly expert on it as a shooter. But as a reporter, I believe most people there would argue that a .22 has a slight advantage in that format. That advantage comes in the form of lower recoil, hence the ability to shoot faster. If your disability means you cannot shoot fast -- run the target -- some of that advantage is lost.
Secondly, within the .22 chamberings, most believe that a .222 isn't quite as accurate as a .220 Russian (or Beggs), or a .22 PPC, (usually held in .010 or so). I can think of ways to lessen that advantage, all the way to using steelhead cases with Palmisano's cone-shaped base. This should improve the ignition considerably. There are probably other ways to achieve an advantage, no one's working on them, because they are all harder than using a different chambering.
But so what? That's not the point, the point is that if you care to push the envelope with a .222, no one else has worked on it in a number of years, and there do appear to be things that could be pursued.
One more thing on USB. I tried to interest my club in the format; they felt the current system, using a .30 reticule to score every target regardless of the caliber used, worked good enough. I'm not going to argue that either way, just be aware that at a club level (only), there are several options in score competition to remove the very real disadvantages of .22s
Finally, leaving competition, my hunch is that to get a .222 to be very accurate, you need very good bullets. This "very good" goes beyond the skill of the bullet maker; there are a number of highly skilled bullet makers. It's the luck of their getting a superior lot of jackets, not only low runout (in the .0001 region), but also superior ductility.
How to find those jackets? Ah, there's the rub. You can always just ask. The late Jef Fowler always told customers when he had bad jackets, otherwise they were "good." But if you asked him *how* good, he'd tell you. I think most bullet makers today would do the same. So, take things slow, ask, and when good ones appear, buy what you can.
Very good bullets, a very good barrel, work on the ignition, and you'll have a surprisingly capable .222 Remington rifle.
Since I've never worked one up, I don't know where to start, except I'd try different powder/primer combinations, based on recommended powders. I'd look at Michael Turner's flash hole shrinking tool, more for the effect on uniforming the entire flash hole than for reducing it per se, though that too might help.
Pursuing ignition beyond what;'s normally considered sane, look at Palmisano's case design for "long range" cases, achievable by us mortals only by making a 2-piece, steel head case. Thread the brass to fit inside the steel, admittedly the harder approach. Can't find a picture on the internet, but there was an older article in Precision Shooting on the design...
Etc.
For any single rifle, I believe a particular chambering is less important that all the other details, one of which, sadly, is a great barrel. We don't yet know how to make great barrels, but they do happen.
Good luck to you,
Charles Ellertson
If you're not going to compete, the next couple paragraphs are of less value. But anyway...
I'd remark that I've now shot one (1 only) USB score match, the Nationals, so I'm hardly expert on it as a shooter. But as a reporter, I believe most people there would argue that a .22 has a slight advantage in that format. That advantage comes in the form of lower recoil, hence the ability to shoot faster. If your disability means you cannot shoot fast -- run the target -- some of that advantage is lost.
Secondly, within the .22 chamberings, most believe that a .222 isn't quite as accurate as a .220 Russian (or Beggs), or a .22 PPC, (usually held in .010 or so). I can think of ways to lessen that advantage, all the way to using steelhead cases with Palmisano's cone-shaped base. This should improve the ignition considerably. There are probably other ways to achieve an advantage, no one's working on them, because they are all harder than using a different chambering.
But so what? That's not the point, the point is that if you care to push the envelope with a .222, no one else has worked on it in a number of years, and there do appear to be things that could be pursued.
One more thing on USB. I tried to interest my club in the format; they felt the current system, using a .30 reticule to score every target regardless of the caliber used, worked good enough. I'm not going to argue that either way, just be aware that at a club level (only), there are several options in score competition to remove the very real disadvantages of .22s
Finally, leaving competition, my hunch is that to get a .222 to be very accurate, you need very good bullets. This "very good" goes beyond the skill of the bullet maker; there are a number of highly skilled bullet makers. It's the luck of their getting a superior lot of jackets, not only low runout (in the .0001 region), but also superior ductility.
How to find those jackets? Ah, there's the rub. You can always just ask. The late Jef Fowler always told customers when he had bad jackets, otherwise they were "good." But if you asked him *how* good, he'd tell you. I think most bullet makers today would do the same. So, take things slow, ask, and when good ones appear, buy what you can.
Very good bullets, a very good barrel, work on the ignition, and you'll have a surprisingly capable .222 Remington rifle.
Since I've never worked one up, I don't know where to start, except I'd try different powder/primer combinations, based on recommended powders. I'd look at Michael Turner's flash hole shrinking tool, more for the effect on uniforming the entire flash hole than for reducing it per se, though that too might help.
Pursuing ignition beyond what;'s normally considered sane, look at Palmisano's case design for "long range" cases, achievable by us mortals only by making a 2-piece, steel head case. Thread the brass to fit inside the steel, admittedly the harder approach. Can't find a picture on the internet, but there was an older article in Precision Shooting on the design...
Etc.
For any single rifle, I believe a particular chambering is less important that all the other details, one of which, sadly, is a great barrel. We don't yet know how to make great barrels, but they do happen.
Good luck to you,
Charles Ellertson
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Lee Martin
Active member
We built my first 222 in 1991 and I've been hooked on it ever since. I can't tell you how many times its put me in the 1's and 2's with an old Lyman Target Dot and Sierra Match Kings (over RL-7):
I hope to start competing next year and it'll be with a PPC. That said the 222 has won me over on accuracy, life-span, and ease to tune.
-Lee
www.singleactions.com
I hope to start competing next year and it'll be with a PPC. That said the 222 has won me over on accuracy, life-span, and ease to tune.
-Lee
www.singleactions.com
Hunter
Runnin' Along
DD, check you're PM Inbox.
Pete Wass
Well-known member
Auction Arms
Bill,
Every time I have looked on Auction Arms.com I have seen several .222 Vixens there for sale. The tought ones to find are the 6PPC's
Pete
Bill,
Every time I have looked on Auction Arms.com I have seen several .222 Vixens there for sale. The tought ones to find are the 6PPC's
Pete
Slowshot, the reason I highlighted the bit above was that back in 2001 one of the competitors at the World Benchrest Championship held in Nelson New Zealand (WBC6) was in a wheelchair and was using a Remington 40XBR in 223. He did pretty good too beating a lot of 6PPC's, full results can be found here, his name is Ken Simpson, http://www.world-benchrest.com/WBC6.doc
I don't know your exact situation but please don't let being in a wheelchair stop you.....Ian
B
Brian Adams
Guest
I have an old Sako L461 Vixen in 222 Rem, and it's the most accurate sporter I own, shoots cloverleafs all day. I load 40-grain V-max bullets atop H4198 for varmints. It has the sweetest little action, can't stop ogling it, makes a short Rem 700 seem bloated. Very smooth bolt feed out of the magazine if I want, and the ejector is very gentle, so cases are easy to coddle while extracting. Beautiful walnut Montecarlo stock with a flat-bottom forend. In short - a joy to own and shoot. The 222 cartridge likewise makes one wax poetic - very pretty little case (to my eye) compared to the 223 (which I also load), legendary accuracy, easy on the ears, shoulder, and the powder budget. If you want the best Lapua makes 222 brass that will last forever. I doubt you'll regret owning a good 222 rifle.
That's enough... Enjoy the 222!!!
What it's REALLY about is that just touching it makes you feel all warm and fuzzy.
al
The final Result of the 222 Project
I don't think I ever got back to you guys on the final result of my 222 Remington Project. In the end, Russ Haydon put together the rifle for me. It is a left handed BAT action 222, with a Jewell trigger, Krieger barrel and Kelbly HCFB stock. When it was finished, I mounted a Weaver T-36 and Russ and I took it to my home club and broke it in. Since then I have made two changes. I removed the rather large butt pad I had asked for as I am shooting mostly free recoil and the thing kicks like a kitten anyhow. Also, I replaced the scope with a Leupold BR 36 that had been bumped to 50X. I am still learning how to handle the rifle and have fewer than 100 rounds down range with it, while load testing. Still, in it's current configuration, it has already given me one 100 yard 5-shot group measuring 0.211". As the saying goes, "preliminary results are encouraging."
Here is a picture with the T-36 and before I removed the butt pad:
I don't think I ever got back to you guys on the final result of my 222 Remington Project. In the end, Russ Haydon put together the rifle for me. It is a left handed BAT action 222, with a Jewell trigger, Krieger barrel and Kelbly HCFB stock. When it was finished, I mounted a Weaver T-36 and Russ and I took it to my home club and broke it in. Since then I have made two changes. I removed the rather large butt pad I had asked for as I am shooting mostly free recoil and the thing kicks like a kitten anyhow. Also, I replaced the scope with a Leupold BR 36 that had been bumped to 50X. I am still learning how to handle the rifle and have fewer than 100 rounds down range with it, while load testing. Still, in it's current configuration, it has already given me one 100 yard 5-shot group measuring 0.211". As the saying goes, "preliminary results are encouraging."
Here is a picture with the T-36 and before I removed the butt pad:
Attachments
I have two 222s now and am looking for my third (+ Update on the BAT 222)
In addition the the custom bench gun in 222 Remington that Russ Haydon built for me, as one of his last builds before he retired. Last year I also bought a Ruger No. 1A in 222 Rem. I would have preferred a 1V but that model is out of production. I am able to shoot it from a bench with a bipod. Now being a guy with little good judgment and less self control , I am looking for a left handed bolt action 222 that weighs a bit less than the BAT 222. Wouldn't you know CZ makes the CZ 527 right or left handed in .223 Rem. but only right handed in .222 Rem. I see Tikka makes a left handed T3 Hunter in 222 Rem. but that is a very light weight hunting rifle, not really my style. I have owned several light weight hunting rifles and found they just sit in my safe and become 'safe queens'. I do not need any safe queens. I am too old and not rich enough.* What I would like would be about a 9-10 lb. varmint weight rifle in 222 Rem that I could use with either a bipod or a rest. I would even trade the Ruger No. 1** straight across for the right rifle. Any suggestions?
Health problems have kept me away from the range most of the past year so I do not have a lot of rounds down range with the BAT 222. Within the first 100 rounds, I did achieve this result:
* Over a year ago, I ordered an SEB NEO rest. I have it now but have not yet gotten it to the firing line. Now you see why I cannot afford safe queens.
**Here is the Ruger No. 1 in 222 Rem. Russ Haydon set it up with a bipod stud for me and I had a Jard 1.75 lb. trigger installed. I haven't even run 50 rounds through it yet and none with the new trigger. What was I thinking??
In addition the the custom bench gun in 222 Remington that Russ Haydon built for me, as one of his last builds before he retired. Last year I also bought a Ruger No. 1A in 222 Rem. I would have preferred a 1V but that model is out of production. I am able to shoot it from a bench with a bipod. Now being a guy with little good judgment and less self control , I am looking for a left handed bolt action 222 that weighs a bit less than the BAT 222. Wouldn't you know CZ makes the CZ 527 right or left handed in .223 Rem. but only right handed in .222 Rem. I see Tikka makes a left handed T3 Hunter in 222 Rem. but that is a very light weight hunting rifle, not really my style. I have owned several light weight hunting rifles and found they just sit in my safe and become 'safe queens'. I do not need any safe queens. I am too old and not rich enough.* What I would like would be about a 9-10 lb. varmint weight rifle in 222 Rem that I could use with either a bipod or a rest. I would even trade the Ruger No. 1** straight across for the right rifle. Any suggestions?
Health problems have kept me away from the range most of the past year so I do not have a lot of rounds down range with the BAT 222. Within the first 100 rounds, I did achieve this result:
* Over a year ago, I ordered an SEB NEO rest. I have it now but have not yet gotten it to the firing line. Now you see why I cannot afford safe queens.
**Here is the Ruger No. 1 in 222 Rem. Russ Haydon set it up with a bipod stud for me and I had a Jard 1.75 lb. trigger installed. I haven't even run 50 rounds through it yet and none with the new trigger. What was I thinking??
N
Nickle
Guest
Slow, glad to see it worked out. I started shooting benchrest in the late 60's with a 13.5 pound 222. Got out of it when I went in the Army, and back into it when I got out. Then got out of it, and picked it back up last year.
I've still got several 222's, Heavy Bench (Rem 722), Heavy Varmint (Hart), Light Varmint (40X) and several others no longer used in competition or factory sporting rifles. All that said, I am slowly going to phase the caliber out of the benchrest rifles, but some of the others are staying as 222's. It's still a competitive caliber, though rarely used in competition any more.
I've still got several 222's, Heavy Bench (Rem 722), Heavy Varmint (Hart), Light Varmint (40X) and several others no longer used in competition or factory sporting rifles. All that said, I am slowly going to phase the caliber out of the benchrest rifles, but some of the others are staying as 222's. It's still a competitive caliber, though rarely used in competition any more.
R
Rexracer707
Guest
Glad those .222 are working out. There is just something about them, I have a Sako L461 in .222, hand me down from my grandpa to my dad then me, serial number is from the early 60's, It has the original scope he put on, a Bausch and Lomb(No Turrets on scope) with Leupold adjustable bases. Still drives tacks at 100yrds, And I have never adjusted the scope.
My normal load for it is 22grs AA2230 with a Sierra 52Gr HPBT.
Have another load with IMR4895 but can't find or remember it.
My normal load for it is 22grs AA2230 with a Sierra 52Gr HPBT.
Have another load with IMR4895 but can't find or remember it.
First of all, for those who are concerned about my disability, this is not a problem at all. With many years of experience in dealing with partial right side paralysis, I got it. I only mention it to help explain some of my choices. It saves on a lot of Q&A. My most recent health issues are mainly related to getting old.
I got out twice this week with both of my 222s. Once again, the BAT gave me pretty decent results:
The Ruger No. 1A shoots just fine but it is not the right rifle for me. I let another guy try it. He easily achieved sub MOA with it. I am in a bit of a quandary. I have too much invested in it to sell it at my cost or to lose a lot in a resale. I found one guy who could re-barrel and re-stock it to be a 1V but then I would have nearly $2000 invested in a rifle that would still be marginal for me.
PS: The SEB NEO rest is worth every penny I paid for it. I will try to get a picture of my current BR setup on the line, sometime later this week. It is pretty cold right now but the wind has been calm, which really helps me.
I got out twice this week with both of my 222s. Once again, the BAT gave me pretty decent results:
The Ruger No. 1A shoots just fine but it is not the right rifle for me. I let another guy try it. He easily achieved sub MOA with it. I am in a bit of a quandary. I have too much invested in it to sell it at my cost or to lose a lot in a resale. I found one guy who could re-barrel and re-stock it to be a 1V but then I would have nearly $2000 invested in a rifle that would still be marginal for me.
PS: The SEB NEO rest is worth every penny I paid for it. I will try to get a picture of my current BR setup on the line, sometime later this week. It is pretty cold right now but the wind has been calm, which really helps me.
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