Another Wilson Die ??

C

CHeetahman

Guest
Okay... I started with virgin norma brass prep it up and then neck sized it runout was between two and three thou, loaded it runout remained the same, fired it runout remained, then resized it and runout is anywhere from three to five thou now :( I am using a bushing three thou smaller then the loaded round. I dont have any press dies to try it against so thats not an option now.
 
Hrer is the problem

If you lookat how a Wilson die works, the case mouth enters the bushing before the case is fully supported at the body. There is nothing to keep it from cocking ever so slightly.
The next time you size a case, take a good look at the neck. Chances are it will actually appear off center.
I keep telling shooters that most case, and final loaded round runnout, is induced in the sizing phase.
That is why I finally went to a solid die, with no bushing. Since I did, my loaded rounds run about .001 or less on average.
How to get a proper solid bushingless die is another discussion. It does lock you into one neck tension, but I believe once you arrive at a neck tension that works with your combination, there is no need to ever vary it.
I don't. I also never vary my seating depth, doing all tuning with sllight powder charge changes, and of course, my tuner.........jackie
 
Jackie

That makes sense. When I spin one of the ones i just sized you can see that spins kind of "crooked" on one side or the other. I was always under the impression that wilson dies were supposed to really help your runout.
 
Or maybe........

Grit and gradoo on the bushing upper surface, or the underside of the decapper pin surface it pushes on will cause the bushing to go into a cant and induce the runout. Clean all surfaces and try it again. There is also the possibillity that the surface the bushing rides on when sizing was not machined perfectly flat. More than likely the grit and gradoo..........
Bryan
 
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Jackie -

whether you use a bushing die or a solid die, it seems you have the same problem - the neck starts the squishing process before the case is totally supported. The only die that would not seem to do this is something like a Redding comp die with the sliding insert that fits the case body before the sizing takes place. I would think what you have going in your favor is the play in your presses that allows for alignment as this sizing starts.

I use my bushing die with the top a bit loose and I use a lot of lube and my runout is usually under .001. I also double stroke that baby such that when I first feel contact with something, I back the handle down a bit till the case is loose in the shell holder and then go for it. I measure runout at home a lot to verify the process but not so much at matches.

Scott
 
Jackie,

Something I've always meant to ask; what is "case fully supported"?

I mounted one of my sizing dies, an older Hammonds, and unscrewed the top. It is hard to measure how much of the case is out of the die when i begin to feel resistence, but it is about .3+ -- which is about the length of the neck.

For another test, I took another case & ran it in until I felt resistance, then started screwing down the top. I could get it all the way down (i.e., the bushing is not touching the neck), but couldn't size much more of the case before the neck bushing was in play.

OK, while the case is supported a bit, not much of it is really in contact with the die walls.

The question is, I can't think of any FL design, bushing or solid, where much of the case is in contact with the walls before sizing of the neck begins. The only way I can see that is if you completely size the body, then have some arrangement to finish, by sizing the neck -- and of course, that additional "arrangement" would have to have a bit of clearance & tolerance.

So how much contact with the die sidewalls is needed for good support?

Edit: I see a bunch of other people posted while I ran my little test. I don't believe you can FL size with a sliding sleeve arrangement, like the Redding comp die, can you?
 
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What we are needing is a '2 lever sizing die'. Say a Harrells die with a sliding bushing retainer instead of the normal threaded arrangement. You run the case all the way into the sizing die and then while the case is fully supported you would use the 2nd lever to force the bushing down over the neck. Lifting the lower lever would then extract the case from both the die and the neck bushing.

In the Lee Collet setup the case is somewhat supported as the neck is sized. You just can't bump the shoulder with the Lee setup.
 
Charles

I think you are right about the neck getting the squeeze before the body makes any kind of contact. Just for thought, what about a FL die that acts like the Lee die and just squeezes the case in it's entirety? (not just the neck) Difficult to design, I suppose, and would probably need to be reamer specific. The only other alternative I could think of would be fitted necks.............but brass would not freely chamber for the complete duration of a match, and attention to detail would be extremely critical.
BA
 
I first had a big problem with runout from an expander button. Then I went to a bushing type die and it helped but still induced some runout. Then I went to a solid one piece FL sizing die without an expander that was honed for the neck tension I wanted. Now the loaded round runout is less than .001 99% of the time.
 
I'm wit' Charles, it ain't about support. If the walls of the die are "supporting" anything when the neck begins to be sized, something's WRONG!!

Bushing dies are perfectly capable on maintaining concentricity. Harrell's are designed with a loose-fitting floating bushing. I have several other sets designed the same way.


Now a Redding seater with a bushing setup??? Maybe a guy'd be onto something there.........

Expander buttons are not suited for any sort of accuracy work, ever.

al
 
Just to be clear, I'm not arguing with/against Jackie. I've often wondered about this whole matter.

Jackie has a wealth of experience; the dynamic process of sizing, as opposed to a static analysis, could be quite different than we assume.
 
I'm not arguing either..........I can't see that it's an "argument".

Jackie's a machinist, he just didn't think it through. If he DID and can show how it's supported, GREAT!!

But then I'm just pissy because of a bunch of whining sniveling board-babies who're constantly feeling "picked on".

I'm gonna' go shoot, some more......


al
 
Let me explain

My die is also the full length sizer, in other words, the case that comes out of the die is the exact shape of that die, which is dead straight.
A typical bushing die that does not also size the case has a small amount of clearance at the case body. This is the culprit.
I guess you are just going to have to trust me on this one. I tried about everything, and finally came to the conclusion that the only way to make a dead straight case is to full length size-bump the shoulder- size the neck all together.
When I first told other shooters about this, they said, 'but you are locked into one neck tension". That is when I decided that I could tune with other methods and leave the neck tension constant.
All I have to show the worth of this method is my loaded rounds are typically very straight, and a few agg wins here and there.......jackie
 
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Yeahh, I've got a bunch of dies like that. BUT...... the sides of the case can't touch the sidewalls of the die until after the neck hits. I'll go check one. I can take one of my Neil Jones' apart.

al
 
Al

It makes no difference. Once the case is fully inserted, it is forced into the exact shape of the die, which squishes everything. The case that comes out is a mirror image of the die.
Neck Dies such as a Wilson do nothing to the body. In fact, take the bushing out, and the case will just slip right in, with a little clearance.
.......jackie
 
Makes sense to me....

Your method makes sense to me Jackie. My present method is to use a Redding "S" type full length die to resize the case and bump the shoulder, then in a separate operation I use a Lee Collet die to size the neck. This method provides very little run out. I can get away with firing the brass six or seven times til the bolt hard closing tells me to do the operation over again.

Good shootin...virg
 
I was wrong, Jackie's right. On my PPC's, BR's Min-taper .308's and my new min-taper 6X47 th neck bushing DOES engage first but only by .017 to .056 on the ones I checked.

Every one DID start to size the neck but the shoulders came into contact at nearly the same time. I cannot state unequivocally that the guidance of the die doesn't help with neck concentricity.

This is the same for one-piece, two-piece and bushing dies with the exception of one die reamed by Borden where I asked Jim to leave a small land under the bushing instead of a knife edge.... this one is the one that only lifted the bushing 17 thou before the shoulders hit.

Good eye Jackie.


al
 
Sorry Jackie, I posted over you......


One thing about your statement --- "the case is a mirror image of the die"---- Brass has springback. A banana'd case cannot be straightened by the resizer nor can a neck be brought over much. And an eccentric turned neck will fit the die perfectly when it's squished inside but when you pull it back out it resumes its old cant.

THIS is why I'm so anal about fireforming............no matter HOW GOOD the die-fit, it can only maintain what the rifle makes. And making a case conform exactly to the entire inside of the die doesn't guarantee anything.........a 22.00 RCBS Resizer will also squish the entire case down to exactly fit the die, but when it pops out it ain't straight.

al
 
Jackie is right. A one piece die that is straight, and which has the ID of the neck the right diameter to produce the desired neck tension (turned neck, no expander) is the very best for producing the straight brass.

I can keep my loaded rounds under .002 total runout, on the bullet, with a bushing die, and one of Nielson's close fitting arbor press type seaters, which I think is close enough, given that I have my bullets seated into the rifling. On the other hand, my one-piece FL die runs off and hides from any bushing die that I have ever seen, producing neck runout that is well under .0005 at the end of the neck. The question is, how straight is straight enough? How much runout does it take to show up on the target?

As far as the runout cited on the Wilson neck sizder, it is way too much. I would send the die back to see if the part of the die that holds the case is properly lined up with the part that holds the sizing bushing. If there is a problem, I am sure that they will replace the die.
 
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