Another 50Millionths Man?

Butch, I've often said that if two gunsmiths were talking and a third party, not a gunsmith, were listening the conversation would go like this; Gunsmith A tells how he chambers a barrel and trues an action. When he finishes Gunsmith B would explain that Gunsmith A was little more than a blacksmith because, in addition to the steps taken he didn't follow us with Steps 6-10.

The third party, not knowing squat about building a rifle, would listen and come to the confusion that Gunsmith B was the superior because he did more 'steps'. In other words, whoever can make the process sound the more mystical of the two would win in the eyes of the listener. Allan Hall said it best when he said that one of the most important things to learn was how to separate fly specks from black pepper.

I could grow a crop of cotton with all the 'fertilizer' that guy spreads.
 
Well,

Mickey is spot on about his crop production, and I know exactly where the consumer is.! Every year I go to the Shot Show, and every year the "black shirt, mis-matched camo" group swells even larger in numbers. Listening to all the guys who claim to be SEALS, Delta's, Snipers, Delta Snipers, Delta SEALS, ect,- it's a wonder who is left to drive the tanks, prepare the meals, and fly the planes. Yet, sales of this kind of gear is astounding.

The market is there, and they sell the dream every day.
 
I'd like to see his equipment list.

A lathe cutting a 12" test bar to 50 millionths, RIGHT, I could hold it in my hand and it would warp, that far out.

Although his thinking about tolerances is accurate, claiming to hold what he says is total BS, that is unless he's got a NASA budget.
 
I like the cowboys that split tenths. Unless they have a good set-up tenths are what the Indians used to live in(pun intended)

Mike Swartz
 
So where is this controlled temp shooting range at there shooting in cause when temps change 30 degrees from morning to the afternoon there tolerances go to hell and I wonder what happens to there tolerances when a round is fired
 
Reporting 50 millionths can cause heartburn.

I once wrote an article about Clay Spencer...who claimed to be able to cut a chamber concentric to 50 millionths. I, as the messenger, received a lot of flak. While talking to Clay about this, he offered to demonstrate this to anyone who wanted to come to the shop. Several skeptics have already witnessed this first hand. Gary Ocock told me that he often held this level of precision. Maybe if these gentlemen had reported that they could hold 1/2 of .0001, they would have been believed. Dear friends, 1/2 of .0001 is 50 millionths. Good shooting...James

PS Many shooters claim to turn necks of the PPC case to .0001 with their Nielson or K&M turner. It seems to me that if they can do this with an inexpensive hand tool, then perhaps Clay could do twice as good with an expensive Romi lathe.
 
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James,
I still find discussions of quarter inch accuracy with factory ammunition a little hard to swallow. A long time ago, before PCs or the internet, I remember a gun writer once wrote something to the effect that that kind of accuracy is easier to achieve with a typewriter than with a rifle. How about it, why don't several of us chip in and offer to pay this fellow's entry fee at a benchrest match? Perhaps we could find one where the director would allow him to shoot, and score his targets, as a verifiable demonstration of his claim. Looking at his location, it would have to be Phoenix or Visalia, or perhaps one of his customers would take up the challenge.
Boyd
 
Has anyone ever tried to cut a crooked, non-concentric chamber and see how far out of alignment with the bore it could be before it effected accuracy ? What exactly happens to a perfect or non perfect bullet as it enters a concentric or non concentric bore? Could a non perfect bullet enter a non perfect throat and be transformed into a perfect projectile by random circumstance ? Does a gunsmith need a $20,000 Lathe to cut a good shootin' chamber ? Hurry,Quick,---- Delete,Delete,Delete !
 
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Nader,

$20,000 won't even come close to produce that kind of accuracy, 250-500,000.00 maybe

Being able to make a hole round to 50 mil is just a smoke screen, it does not mean that it's straight. That claim is actually made by Romi, and it's meaningless as lathes work in a minimum of 2 axis, the roundness is just part of the picture. Anything that required that kind of accuracy would not be finished in a lathe anyway.
 
Boyd Allen said:
James,
I still find discussions of quarter inch accuracy with factory ammunition a little hard to swallow. A long time ago, before PCs or the internet, I remember a gun writer once wrote something to the effect that that kind of accuracy is easier to achieve with a typewriter than with a rifle. How about it, why don't several of us chip in and offer to pay this fellow's entry fee at a benchrest match? Perhaps we could find one where the director would allow him to shoot, and score his targets, as a verifiable demonstration of his claim. Looking at his location, it would have to be Phoenix or Visalia, or perhaps one of his customers would take up the challenge.
Boyd
Click to expand...

C',mon Boyd, I didn't expect you to jump on this bandwagon....


I know how to build a rifle which will easily hold 1/4moa with factory ammo.

And have done it.

Some'a you'se guys get so intent on bashing, so negative that you make certain assumptions based on a very limited perspective........ To build a 1/4moa rifle which shoots factory ammo you simply buy enough of your chosen ammo to last and you order the reamer from it and headspace from it. The rifle is simply built around the ammunition.

Take a lesson from the RF guys. Contrary to the 'immutable facts' presented in this thread, they DO sometimes get their stuff to agg under 1/4moa.

al
 
Boyd Allen said:
James,
I still find discussions of quarter inch accuracy with factory ammunition a little hard to swallow. A long time ago, before PCs or the internet, I remember a gun writer once wrote something to the effect that that kind of accuracy is easier to achieve with a typewriter than with a rifle. How about it, why don't several of us chip in and offer to pay this fellow's entry fee at a benchrest match? Perhaps we could find one where the director would allow him to shoot, and score his targets, as a verifiable demonstration of his claim. Looking at his location, it would have to be Phoenix or Visalia, or perhaps one of his customers would take up the challenge.
Boyd
Click to expand...

This has always been my thinking about those that are into the TAC-TI-COOL. Put your money where your mouth is and come and shoot.

Let them shoot whatever they want in a rifle that they CLAIM to be that accurate or that good. Just may need someone to stand over them when and if they are shooting one of them Klik-Klak rifles to make sure they are all clear and safe after firing there group.

One stipulation is if it is that good as a stock build, NO forend adapters to help stabilize the rifle in the front bag. Heck they are probably shot off of bi-pods anyways.

Sorry in advance fellas. I am not into the tacticool rifles or the tacticool matches. Just not enough precision for me.

As a matter of thinking did I just use the word Klik????? Been a while since I had a can of that stuff. Just may have to dig my way out of the whitestuff that fell yesterday and is still falling and get me to the store for a can of that stuff............

Calvin
 
Butch, only one word comes to mind. "Idiots".
Not only to the carnaval barkers that throw around such outlandish claims, but also those that are willing to shell out hard earned cash to buy it.........jackie
 
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While I believe that many can hold 50 millionths, I don't buy the 1/8th MOA. It is easy to make such claims, but where are those wonder rifles (and shooters) at the matches? I have heard several "barber shop" deer rifles that would shoot 1/2 inch groups at 200 yards ...all day long. To this I say horse pucky. James
 
Al,
I'll pay your entry fee for one day, and try to help to make arrangements for you to do that at a match in Tacoma. I would think that it would be very good for business. I didn't say that I knew that it couldn't be done, just that absent published match results, I am extremely doubtful. Oh, and I wasn't talking about just any caliber. I believe that the claim was made for a .308. Added later: Make that a tactical rifle, in .308.
Boyd
 
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