Al's 6x47L
- Thread starter Law Dawg
- Start date
Butch Lambert
Active member
Not any more Jim, I have a few .260 and .2595 left.
Butch
Butch
J
JRinCo
Guest
Hooked
I've been reading this post with great intrest. For the last couple of weeks I've been playing with a 6x47 on a sporter barrel that was chambered, using a more standard approach. I'm only getting .5 groups, but my God the extreme vel. spread is only 3 fps, using Berger 105's and H4350. So I'm thinkin that I might want a barrel in 6x47 for my 1000 yd. rifle.
Al
Is this reamer and the rest of your method going to provide a noticeable improvement over a more conventional approach.
Thanks
JR
I've been reading this post with great intrest. For the last couple of weeks I've been playing with a 6x47 on a sporter barrel that was chambered, using a more standard approach. I'm only getting .5 groups, but my God the extreme vel. spread is only 3 fps, using Berger 105's and H4350. So I'm thinkin that I might want a barrel in 6x47 for my 1000 yd. rifle.
Al
Is this reamer and the rest of your method going to provide a noticeable improvement over a more conventional approach.
Thanks
JR
I can't relate to a person being "unconventional" without achieving in a solid gain. I quit being different just for he sake of being different 25yrs ago.
IMO a shooting system has to be strong across the boards or it's just another rifle..... THE PPC's WIN FOR A REASON. It ain't about luck nor even numbers, the numbers are the RESULT of the methods. Also IMO, these methods can translate to other rounds.
Right now my bro-in-law is shooting next to me with a .243AI built to BR spec's and shooting PROPERLY fireformed brass in a PROPERLY headspaced chamber. He's turning in some real bugholes, tuned to perfection. BUT, he's also shooting down where the .243AI likes to shoot, almost 500fps slower than my 6X47L. This isn't as huge a problem as it would seem, up close, but get out to 600yds and his higher ES and winddrift become real factors.
Folks in point blank BR will spend huge dollars over 100fps @ 100yds where the difference is truly minuscule. In fact they'll OVERplay this hand quite often as they'll strive for the extra 100fps while ignoring 45fps Extreme Spread just because in reality the difference is lost in the noise...... but out in the Big Air they both items become real players. Bugholes up close don't tell the whole story, beyond 500yds you can start to really see differences in letoffs due to the lower velocity and higher ES. At 100/200 the DIFFERENCE lost in misreading the wind letoff by a few mph is pretty hard to quantify but at 600yds it can sometimes be measured in inches. Same with ES regarding drop, it's starting to show up as vertical @600yds.
As per your actual question. All's I can say is that in the last ten yrs the number of innovations that I've seen that were "unconventional" at the time but are now standard fare can't be numbered on both hands.......
Same with the number of total flops.
moreso.In all this I'm happy with the choices I've made.
For your situation I'll suggest that you make some proper bras by necking down to a false shoulder and JAMMING it and see if you can see the difference. It's FREE and you'll be able to tell us how it went.
I'm waiting for your testing.
al
Last edited:
The Question . . . and the Answer.
Al:
I find JR's question profoundly simple and to the point . . . the ultimate question. I also find your answer profoundly simple and to the point . . . the ultimate answer.
Like anything worth doing, you have to find the limits to find the leading edge of the "node" and you can't say you have found it unless you have fallen short and gone too far. Then you have narrowed the brackets for real experimentation.
This is why I started this thread. I and many others visiting this thread have more than a little extreme accuracy load prep under our belts with some wood and paper to show we know what we are doing . . . for the moment. Pushing the envelope allows us to advance our mental and physical skill sets with new techniques while setting aside those things we though were correct through convention wisdom -- only to find out that we and "they" were wrong all along. This is what makes precision accuracy loading, in all its forms and development, almost as much -- and maybe as much fun a breaking a center X shot.
It is not my original thought, but I always remind myself that in the long range prone game, anything other than a center X is just a variation of a poorly executed shot. It is the development of the "arrows" that allows the "Indian" to hit the high value target dead center -- time, after time, after time.
In a 2002 letter from Ferris Pindell after the final day of R&D of the meplat closing die, he wrote that "In my 60 years in the bench rest game, I have found the following to be true: accuracy is the result of a multitude of tremendous tirffles." Nuff said.
Favor Center,
Jim Hardy
Al:
I find JR's question profoundly simple and to the point . . . the ultimate question. I also find your answer profoundly simple and to the point . . . the ultimate answer.
Like anything worth doing, you have to find the limits to find the leading edge of the "node" and you can't say you have found it unless you have fallen short and gone too far. Then you have narrowed the brackets for real experimentation.
This is why I started this thread. I and many others visiting this thread have more than a little extreme accuracy load prep under our belts with some wood and paper to show we know what we are doing . . . for the moment. Pushing the envelope allows us to advance our mental and physical skill sets with new techniques while setting aside those things we though were correct through convention wisdom -- only to find out that we and "they" were wrong all along. This is what makes precision accuracy loading, in all its forms and development, almost as much -- and maybe as much fun a breaking a center X shot.
It is not my original thought, but I always remind myself that in the long range prone game, anything other than a center X is just a variation of a poorly executed shot. It is the development of the "arrows" that allows the "Indian" to hit the high value target dead center -- time, after time, after time.
In a 2002 letter from Ferris Pindell after the final day of R&D of the meplat closing die, he wrote that "In my 60 years in the bench rest game, I have found the following to be true: accuracy is the result of a multitude of tremendous tirffles." Nuff said.
Favor Center,
Jim Hardy
Last edited:
J
JRinCo
Guest
False shoulder
This is only my second season at this bench rest game and I'm trying to learn, but the learning curve is pretty steep in some areas!
This false shoulder, I'm assuming that I'm going to create by backing the die off from the point where its making contact with the shoulder. How much .050 or how much.
This is only my second season at this bench rest game and I'm trying to learn, but the learning curve is pretty steep in some areas!
This false shoulder, I'm assuming that I'm going to create by backing the die off from the point where its making contact with the shoulder. How much .050 or how much.
OK JRinCO I'm going to assume that your "6X47" is a 6X47L and not the original 6X47 which is a short-range BR round....... There's a big difference in the way the neck is formed between the two!
But for the 6X47L round you will be necking down 6.5X47 Lapua brass. To set these rounds up for a crush fit you just back the die UP away from the shellholder. The easy way to do this is to use "Skip's Die Shims," http://www.sinclairintl.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?category=search&item=22-400&type=store as these will allow you to set the crushfit headspace incrementally and accurately.
To start I'd just use trial and error to find my initial headspace setting. Gradually screw the die in closer to the shellholder until the bolt closes, now lock the ring and use the shims to find the place where the bolt closes HARD on the newly necked round. This is your "crush fit."
al
But for the 6X47L round you will be necking down 6.5X47 Lapua brass. To set these rounds up for a crush fit you just back the die UP away from the shellholder. The easy way to do this is to use "Skip's Die Shims," http://www.sinclairintl.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?category=search&item=22-400&type=store as these will allow you to set the crushfit headspace incrementally and accurately.
To start I'd just use trial and error to find my initial headspace setting. Gradually screw the die in closer to the shellholder until the bolt closes, now lock the ring and use the shims to find the place where the bolt closes HARD on the newly necked round. This is your "crush fit."
al
Learning curve
JR:
The more you learn it seems the steeper the curve. Welcome to the outer limits.
Jim
JR:
The more you learn it seems the steeper the curve. Welcome to the outer limits.
Jim
J
JRinCo
Guest
Al, I owe you a cigar
I just happened to have a set of those shims on hand. I sized up a set of cases, following your directions and presto, groups shrank from .500's to .2 Incidently, I had even better luck using Reloader 17.
Law Dawg
This sounds more like the X files than the Outer Limits (cases being sucked flat). LOL
I just happened to have a set of those shims on hand. I sized up a set of cases, following your directions and presto, groups shrank from .500's to .2 Incidently, I had even better luck using Reloader 17.
Law Dawg
This sounds more like the X files than the Outer Limits (cases being sucked flat). LOL
NO on the 3500fps!The bro-in-law has been shooting 2700fps with the Ackley. He just recently jumped up to 2800 using a different powder and seems to have maintained his groups. He neck-sizes only because of the shoulder bounce in the 40* Ackley and if he goes over 2900 the brass tightens up too fast. The .243AI will push up past 3000fps but maintaining the brass becomes problematic. Heck, if you just shoot your brass a couple times you can even hit 3200........ for 2-3-4 shots. And he's found a powder that's clear full for 2700 and 2800 (I think he used H-1000 to make the 2800fps) and he's shooting little holes. With the nodes around 250fps apart it's just not really possible to reload the way we do and go higher than 2800 on the .243AI. The tight tolerance required can't be maintained.
There are plenty of people just sizing and trimming away merrily and shooting the .243AI at 3000+ and I say "hey, whatever floats yer boat." These guys ALSO believe that even though their guns group for squat at 100yds, "the groups tighten up as the bullet goes to sleep....." etc etc.
For myself I'm shooting 3150fps as the accuracy load in my old barrel with a ceiling around 3250 using H4350, but I ran the new one up to only 3225 with H4350 and ran out of boiler room. Once I get going with it I may throat it out longer...... at this point I'm still just muddling about. Remember that my "ceiling" is where the brass lasts forever. I now have a tuner barrel so my intent is to flatten out at 3200-3250 and TUNE for the dots....... we'll see!
At 3250 the brass acts, looks and feels like shooting a 6BR @ 2900fps.
Norma brass will never run as high as Win or Lapua. I don't even use it. I've got hundreds of Norma 6BR cases loaded up with a light ground squirrel load and I don't really even care if they fall on the ground.
al
JRinCO,
NOW, you've made some good brass...... the problem now is to MAINTAIN the fit. For the system to "work" the brass must be absolutely FORM FITTED and absolutely CONSISTENT from reload to reload.
Fireforming is easy-peasy. Maintenance can be an unmentionable #$%%^&!!
Fortuitously, there are ways..... and when these ways come together, OOOhhhrauGHHHHH!!! THEN the gun really comes alive.
al
J
JRinCo
Guest
Ah come on, don't tease me!
What am I gona have to do to maintain this brass.
JR
What am I gona have to do to maintain this brass.
JR
Sorry, not teasing just trying not to be repetitive.
The answer to brass maintenance is fitted dies and proper die setup. The problem is procuring the actual fitted dies. They must be set up for your chamber and they must be hardened. I'm going with Neil Jones at this point because he can make a die with replaceable neck bushings as well as a stepped forming bushing for necking down cases while maintaining a straight neck. I tried to get Jim Borden to make the die but it seems there's problems with the hardening process, he opted out. Next step was to use a Harrell, but the Harrell can't be used for necking down. SOOoooo, I'm going with the Jones and having to wait three months for a fitted FL die. I've been necking down using a 6BR FL die but the results have been less than satisfactory.
For you my suggestion is Harrell's. Send them three tight cases and they'll send you back a die which will maintain your cases. If you're already aware of the procedure then cool....... but if you've never done it then I'll explain how to order a Harrell die. This is absolutely KEY to maintaining true accuracy.
Harrell's make dies for only cartridges based on these three cases...... the .220R, 6BR and 6.5X47 Lapua.
Now, if you want to make straight cases AND maintain them using your die, then we need to talk. AS FAR AS I KNOW the ONLY answer is Neil Jones.
I'd love to hear of other alternatives.
al
Al,
Have you found something wrong with Hornady's custom FL or Bushing dies?
I think they are $125 for a FL die and $150 for a FL bushing die.
Dies are CNC to your specks and hardened.
James
No James I have found nothing wrong with them. I've never tried them.
I WOULD try them this time but I'm having so much trouble necking these things down straight that I'm going with the Jones because for 14.00 I can have him make me a custom stepped sizing bushing too.
I WILL try the Hornady dies as soon as possible.
al
steveinflag
New member
Groups
Hi Al,
I don't hang out at this forum much and was directed by a friend to read this thread about 6x47L.I have two of them and it has become my favorite cartridge.I learned a few new things and consider this valuable info.Thanks for taking the time to do so.
Is there any way you could show us some PICS of your groups at various distances?
What shooting disciplines do you use your 6x47L ?
Thanks
Steve
Hi Al,
I don't hang out at this forum much and was directed by a friend to read this thread about 6x47L.I have two of them and it has become my favorite cartridge.I learned a few new things and consider this valuable info.Thanks for taking the time to do so.
Is there any way you could show us some PICS of your groups at various distances?
What shooting disciplines do you use your 6x47L ?
Thanks
Steve
LOL........
Here's a picture.
I take these pix through the scope during load workup and file them with my notes. I find them to be amazingly useful yrs later when returning to a project or when a rifle gets weird on me.......this one's still in my online gallery from about 6mo ago working on one of my 6X47L barrels. This is a Shilen barrel, testing VARget and 4350 with 108 Euber's. (ALSO.... I take the pictures because I'm a lazy butt and don't want to walk down and get my targets
next thang y'know the rain's washed one away and I go down and plaster another layer on.)Anyway. It doesn't tell you anything, it's about half 5-shot groups and half 3/shotters and they ARE all fired consecutively without benefit of sighters so bear with them! The last 6 or 7 groups that are big and dark are 5-shotters, where things started coming together that day.......Other than for my records like this, I don't normally take pictures of groups although I do have some targets from a 600yd match I could snap I guess.
al
Attachments
steveinflag
New member
Thanks lynn,That article at 6mmbr.com is what made me pick 6x47L.
Hi AL,
At what distance were these groups shot?
MY smallest 2 five shot groups were .16 and .19 shot F-class style off the ground at 100 yards.We don't have a cement bench where I live so I'm always wrestling a wobbly rear bag.It is interesting to note that both my 6x47L's like the 108 Eubers best too,But because of the larger hollow point they are down in the BC department according to Bryan Litz at .45-.46 compared to 108 Bergers and 115's.The 115 Berger thicks shoot really well also.Since I'm mostly shooting from 500-1000yards I've been using these instead.
Would you know where I could have custom inside neck reamers ground in 1/4 thou increments?I have not reamed the inside of the necks of my brass because when fired the reamer doesn't even touch the necks and when sized the brass is 3 thou smaller.I only have one custom full length size die so I'm stuck for now concerning amount of neck tension.
Thanks,
Hi AL,
At what distance were these groups shot?
MY smallest 2 five shot groups were .16 and .19 shot F-class style off the ground at 100 yards.We don't have a cement bench where I live so I'm always wrestling a wobbly rear bag.It is interesting to note that both my 6x47L's like the 108 Eubers best too,But because of the larger hollow point they are down in the BC department according to Bryan Litz at .45-.46 compared to 108 Bergers and 115's.The 115 Berger thicks shoot really well also.Since I'm mostly shooting from 500-1000yards I've been using these instead.
Would you know where I could have custom inside neck reamers ground in 1/4 thou increments?I have not reamed the inside of the necks of my brass because when fired the reamer doesn't even touch the necks and when sized the brass is 3 thou smaller.I only have one custom full length size die so I'm stuck for now concerning amount of neck tension.
Thanks,
Last edited: