Action Tenon Length

T

thedrifter

Guest
So I have a qurious question, why are the american made rimfire actions (For example hall or stiller) tenon lengths smaller than the European or Swiss counterparts?

I for one like the Longer Tenon as it is simpler to mount a rifle scope onto. I own and shoot a FWB 2602 and it is no less or more accurate than anything aftermarket, though i did get set up with an aftermarket barrel.

The modern Targets rifles are pushing 2 1/2" tenon lengths
Feinwerkbau 2700 2.8”
Anschutz Square 2.4"
Walther KK300 2.8"
Bleiker Unsure but over 2"
Grunig Elmiger Unsure but about 2" also has a strange barrel support

now the US Actions
Myers, Hall, Stiller, 10X, even Uptagrafft's Action are all next to half those lengths. Having not handled those I cant contribute to their actual length but if you own one I would like to know.
I get that some aftermarket actions are modeled from the remington 40x but why keep it shorter if you are building a new action?

So what is everyone's thoughts on this?
 
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yes, i think that is what it is called, but I've been wronged before.

It is a measurement for the amount of barrel that is turned then attached into the action.
 
I am not an expert in this matter but Europeans claim to use longer tenons for attenuating the vibrations a little better at the point where they are generated (More support where the stronger vibrations occur)...

I have not tried what I am going to say in rimfire guns, but in centerfire rifles (Remington actions) I have had much better results by extending the bedding 1 1/2 inches in front of the action than by shooting them fully floated (no stabilizers of any kind). Extending the bedding is of course not the same as having a longer tenon, but my point is that a longer support seems to stabilize the barrels in these centerfire guns better.

But by the same token some Mauser actions seem to respond better to the "old" pressure point technology (fore end of the stock).
Please understand: THIS HAS BEEN MY EXPERIENCE

Bleiker and more so Gruning & Elmiger have longer tenons for what is said on the first line, but also for integrating a high tech dampening system that goes in front and back of the tenon (Please see pic)...They use "O" rings that attenuate and transmit vibrations to spherical dampeners and also directly to the action; they also use screws as pressure points for added tuning.

I can not speak for the rest of action makers, for shooting dedicated BR (.22 RF) I only have 3 turbos (2 new and 1 from Flash) and the tenons come to 1.005 inches for all three of them, the old Turbo had a slightly longer threading section when I got it (about .002 - .003 longer) and other Flash actions I have measured were 1.004...Anyhow, I machined it to match the new Turbos just for the sake of interchangeability of barrels (Extractor slots/head space).
Note: A tenon is measured from the breech to the shoulder of the barrel, the shoulder is where the barrel locks into the front part of the action.

I believe Stiller is using similar length but I am not sure about this 100%.

I will like to add something:
DiOrio is making the Turbos with amazing precision and consistency, these actions are much better built and with much closer tolerances that the old ones; you can actually swap barrels from one action to the other and the barrels will be dead on and will maintain the head space...I cut extractor slots in all my barrels and these slots align PERFECTLY with the extractors of any of the 3 actions while using the very same torque I use for all barrels.

Regards,

azuaro

RACER03RED.jpg
 
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I think most of the actions mentioned were "slip fit" barrels, maybe that's the reason for the long tenon. I know the Anschutz is.

More surface area is needed for the action to clamp it in.

ON 40x's, I've seen 700 Remington actions with 1.25'' 28" barrels on them. I figure if they'll hold up an 8 lb. barrel, they're plenty strong enough for a rimfire barrel 24" long.
 
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Boyd Allen said:
Is the Gruning & Elmiger more accurate then the best of the custom American rifles?
Click to expand...

My opinion yes, it would honesty be hard to tell though. I know that grunig rifles use American barrels for example lilja, and I know that there was a Grunig a while back that shot a 13.?mm (13.4mm maybe) group, now this group is 40 shots, Also it is measured outside to outside. They are very proud of there rifles but currently Bleiker is a top choice of the ISSF shooters next to Anschutz. And if they use a similar setup it must be helping somewhere if only mental game.
 
there aren't enough of the G&E rifles competing in BR to actually see how they do. From what I've noticed they seem to perform about the same as any other once fitted with a good Lilja barrel, except for about double the cost of putting together a Hall, Falcon, or Turbo.
 
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http://benchrest.com/showthread.php...mpion-Small-Bore-Rifles-are-coming-to-the-U-S

Above is a good read about one grunigs performance. I could also find a review of one I have seen and handled too if anyone is interested. They are truely well made works of art but more developed for position shooters than benchrest.

Back to the topic of tenon length however, I think I would like to see longer American actions being built if nothing else than peace of mind. My personal thoughts on the matter where that making it shorter was a means of money savings not having to machine as much material on both the barrel and action. But I wanted to save that opinion untill after some had chimed in.
 
It's nothing to do with cost of material. In theory, a short 1.350 diameter action in stiffer than an action that is longer.

I clicked on the link you provided. I could build TWO complete Falcon 10.5 class BR rifles for the price of a G&E, and would bet a little money they'd outperform in BR:)
 
thedrifter said:
http://benchrest.com/showthread.php...mpion-Small-Bore-Rifles-are-coming-to-the-U-S

Above is a good read about one Grunig's performance. I could also find a review of one I have seen and handled too if anyone is interested. They are truely well made works of art but more developed for position shooters than benchrest.

Back to the topic of tenon length however, I think I would like to see longer American actions being built if nothing else than peace of mind. My personal thoughts on the matter where that making it shorter was a means of money savings not having to machine as much material on both the barrel and action. But I wanted to save that opinion until after some had chimed in.
Click to expand...

I agree with you, longer actions would be desirable and specially for our long and heavy barrels, with today's CNC machining I believe that the extra cost for machining time and materials would be marginal. My only concern would be making the weight in some classes, I had a hell of a time making the 7.5 Lb. (Sporter IR 50/50) with a .850" 22 inch barrel (including tenon) and a Turbo action...Don Stith played a fundamental role and got me off the hole.

Those European guns are a pleasure to load and shoot and are magnificent pieces or art as you say, a G&E action has linear bearings and you get that "precision perfect fit" feel & no drag, the FWB's 2700 action is also very precise but doesn't have bearings and the Bleiker is what everyone who is into ISSF looks for...G&E is a newer player catching up with Bleiker who has more time on the market and a larger market share.

G&E and Bleiker use Shilen Octagon and Lilja barrels...Nicco Campriani has won many championships with a Lilja barrel...I also think that these actions would be an overkill (Cost) compared to our top BR actions with probably no additional advantages in accuracy; their tunability and high tech features are more intended for 3 position shooting.

The recorded record at an ELEY testing center is (or was the last time I heard about it) held by a FWB 2700 tested in London, but I am not sure if Don Killough is also submitting BR testing info and don't know if Don is going through the same 40 shot testing patterns used for ISSF guns; I would love to find out and compare statistics.
Note: For people who don't know, those ISSF guns are tested for a 40 shot group (edge to edge vs. ctc.)
 
Whoops I was wrong

So I need to correct myself, it was not a Grunig it was a Bleiker that shot a 13.4mm group,
but it is in a Grunig stock :/

Look at this post, second from the bottom for a picture.
www.targetshooting.co.nz/ubbthreads.php/topics/9963/1.html

And for reference a 13.4mm group (outside to outside) is about .303" ctc not bad for 40 shots.

Currently my FWB shoots 2200 ARA (first time too) or around 17-18mm 40 shot groups but I am waiting to get me a choice lot Mesa is only a 6 hr drive ;)

it's Dan not don Killough btw, and according to Facebook he does submit his results, when I went in to killoughs back in October he had a few 9mm 10 shot groups and a few 14-15mm 40 shot groups I have a picture somewhere. I think these were BR guns too.

Just goes to show it's about ammo barrel combination and that combination could be anywhere. I did some research a while back and I came to the conclusion 17mm was average and sub 15mm is Olympic quality. Again 40 shots groups.

Enjoy,
Cameron
 
Sorry..Yes, his name is Dan...Brain/finger coordination error :rolleyes:

I am waiting to get me a choice lot Mesa is only a 6 hr drive ;)
Lucky you!...We can not get out of our main door because of an ice blanket from here to maybe the Yukon...Had 10" on the ground last week but then
40 F temperatures for 4 days, hopefully by the end of the week we will be able to do some shooting.

"I did some research a while back and I came to the conclusion 17mm was average and sub 15mm is Olympic quality. Again 40 shots groups."
More than I can shoot for sure...We should be born OLD and grow Young so we can take full advantage of what we know during our prime, but as the wife says:
That is why God didn't give wings to scorpions! ...Auch!

Good luck and have fun with that FWB...Please let us know how you did.

Regards,

azuaro
 
I made my barrel tenon length about 1/4" longer than a Remington 700. I've never even touched a rimfire 40X, I certainly didn't copy it's design.

The reason for the barrel tenon length is exactly as Kent said. All the European designs are either press-fit barrels or clamp on barrels. All the US made ones are threaded and not as much barrel engagement is needed. I figured if you could hang a 30" 9 pound barrel off a good centerfire action, the relatively short and light-weight rimfire barrels would work great with the same or slightly longer tenon.

I also seriously doubt that any rifle was shot out of it's own stock at the Eley facility in Birmingham. They use chopped off Gemini stock sections clamped in vices to test there. Also, the best consolidated score of 428.0 was shot by an Anschutz barreled by the AMU. That means it had more shots closer to the middle than the Bleiker in the link, even though that one had a better consolidated 40 shot group.

Eric U
 
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My question is not related to the thread but now that you mention it, I have always wondered why do they use 40 shots?

What is the Statistical significance of a 40 shot sample?...We know that the larger the sample the better the stats of course, but why 40 and not 50 or ???

Anyone knows? (just curious)

Thanks,

azuaro
 
Thank you Eric, I agree with you and Kent...

This question is not related to the thread but now that you mention it, I have always wondered why do they use 40 shots for their stats?

What is the Statistical significance of a 40 shot sample?...We know that the larger the sample the better the stats of course, but why 40 and not 50 or ???

Anyone knows how they arrived at this number? (just curious)

Thanks,

azuaro
 
Eric U said:
I made my barrel tenon length about 1/4" longer than a Remington 700. I've never even touched a rimfire 40X, I certainly didn't copy it's design.
Click to expand...

Eric,
I need to apologies, after seeing your comment I had to read what I wrote in my original post then fix my grammar errors. I never intended to accuse you of coppying the Remington 40x my thoughts were just out of order.

Also looking forward to seeing you at the OTC in January I'm betting you are going to put down some serious scores without the wind conditions.

Sincerely,
Cameron
 
The OP was condemning American actions as being a problem to mount scopes on due to the shorter barrel tenon :

"I for one like the Longer Tenon as it is simpler to mount a rifle scope onto."

Can somebody help me understand how barrel threads affect scope mounting??
How do us Americans deal with this defect in our actions??
 
After using my Myers for a while now - - -

I can't, for the life of me figure out WHY all rifle actions aren't made this way. The ease of loading and not having to deal with ejected empties where I am working to load seems such a simple and wonderful idea. My 37 has that feature as well.

Pete
 
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