Accurate AR???

I appreciate the razzing though, i actually figured it was coming!! LOL!! You will be glad to know that i have been shooting some of that new pull down lot of 8208 with terrific results!! I love that stuff!!! I just hope it keeps shooting when its 100 degrees out!! Lee


Ohhhh.... It does....... E-mail sent.

cale
 
I have been lurking in the shadows reading this post trying to find the best combination of parts to use for a Varmint AR Build. I am not really very confident in buying a factory barrel So I was taking the advice of this forum and looking on WOA site. I am wanting to shoot 40G ballistic tips for groundhogs and coyote. WOA is offering a Varmint upper with a 1-12 twist, My question is should I hold out and find a 1-14 twist or would the 1-12 work okay. My concern is over stabilzation and I am not sure if the faster twist would result in any velocity loss. Thanks in advance.
 
Long term the 1-12 may be better as you will likely want to shoot a few longer bullets in the future.

I have been shooting a lot of 30 gr Bergers and 40 gr V Max bullets in my 1-9 twist 16 1/4" M-4 barrel. Accuracy is quite good but I can not get velocity with this short barrel. My 26" 1-14 twist 222 barrel gets 3,850 fps with the 30 gr Bergers and 3,700+ with the 40 gr V Max while the short 223 barrel will only get 3,300 fps. Both barrels are quite accurate. I shoot them against the 6 PPC BR rifles at our local range matches and win a few points. (Some times I get lucky) With the right load and tune on the barrel these light bullets shoot very good at 100 yards and still group at 300 yards. At terminal velocities over 3,500 fps they are impressive on impact.

With the higher velocity the light bullet do shoot quite well in tricky difficult to read wind conditions.

I shoot both 1-14 and 1-12 twist in my 25 BR. I have not seen much difference in velocity. My 1-12 twist is a 29" Bartlien barrel. It shoots the same loads faster than my two 1-14 Montana Barrels Barrels which are 25.5" and 27" long. Some barrels are just faster than others. To me it seems like my barrels with single point cut groves are faster than the others. (Krigers, Bartlien and a few others are single point cut.) The machine marks in the single point cut barrels run with the barrel and do not appear to have any negative impact on bullet accuracy or bullet stability. The broach cut barrels (Savage for example) often have lines like a rail road track across the lands. Some of these barrels that look bad with the bore scope still shoot quite good. But they usually are not "fast" barrels.

Bullet stability comes from the RPM. The faster the bullet comes out of the barrel the faster it is spinning. More spin equal more bullet stability. For example a bullet at 3,000 fps from a 1-12 twist barrel is spinning 180,000 RPM. From a 1-14 twist barrel you need 3,500 fps to get the spin up to the same 180,000 fps.

Most 222 1-14 twist barrel shoots best with the 52/53 grain flat base bullets. They are stable at 3,000 fps (154,000 RPM) These barrels will shoot a most of the 55 grain bullets flat base bullets if you can get speed up to 3,000 fps. Slower or longer bullets are usually not stable.

The shorter barrels do have lower velocity. When the barrel length goes from 20 to 16" there is a significant drop in velocity. As the barrel length goes longer from 20, to 24, and to 26 inches you will see a velocity gain. But not so much after you pass the 20" barrel length with the 223 case.

Shoot safe & have fun.
 
Octopus: Thank you for the curtisy of the reply, It's refreshing to information based on actual experiance. It seams like the more answers I get just leads to more questions. Now I guess I need to compare apples to apples. From what I gather from your response your longer barrels are generating more velocity than the shorter barrels This is not surprising.I am planning on cutting the AR barrel to a finished length of 20" So what I need is a comparision of what the velocity difference would be for a 40G bullet propelled by a load of 27.5 or 28G of H335. Using a 1-14 twist VRS a 1-12 twist and from there I can decide if that increse is worth the cost of going with a custom barrel, it's not hard to find a 1-12 for an AR however the only 1-14 I can find is a Hart from A1 rifles. I am leary about the quality of the Hart barrels based on what I have read about the accuracy.
 
Other things being equal a 1-14 will shoot the 40 gr tip faster than the 1-12. However, just my limited experience, the cut rifle barrel, Bartlien or Kriger will shoot the bullet faster than the Hart as it is not a single point cut barrel. Likely Kriger will make you a fitted barrel if you send them your bolt. I have heard that the Rock Creek AR barrels are very good but I have never used one myself.

H-335 powder will not get the precision that a stick powder like H-4895 E or VV 135 gets. I suspect all of these powders are slow for the 40 gr bullets. I have been using H-4198 with the lighter bullets. (Remember I shoot moly bullets and they go into the lands easier than the naked bullets.
 
stall said:
Octopus: I am leary about the quality of the Hart barrels based on what I have read about the accuracy.
Click to expand...

lol
my ar15 with a hart 1/14 twist bbl shoots under .2
....is that ACCURATE enough for you ??
( 26" just over 1" at the muzzle, gas block moved 2" forward)

52/53 at 35/3600fps........
try some of the 8208.....
mike in co
 
the bolt is not really required to fit the bbl. the bbl extention and the bolt are made to spec and the headspace can be set with out the bolt....having said that i set mine with the bolt.
if you have the money and the time, i would go with a krieger steel bbl over a ss bbl...it should shoot longer.
mike in co

Octopus said:
Other things being equal a 1-14 will shoot the 40 gr tip faster than the 1-12. However, just my limited experience, the cut rifle barrel, Bartlien or Kriger will shoot the bullet faster than the Hart as it is not a single point cut barrel. Likely Kriger will make you a fitted barrel if you send them your bolt. I have heard that the Rock Creek AR barrels are very good but I have never used one myself.

H-335 powder will not get the precision that a stick powder like H-4895 E or VV 135 gets. I suspect all of these powders are slow for the 40 gr bullets. I have been using H-4198 with the lighter bullets. (Remember I shoot moly bullets and they go into the lands easier than the naked bullets.
Click to expand...
 
Mike .2s is very accurate and I would be happy with a AR that would consistantly hold twice that. I mentioned I was suspect about the accuracy of hart barrels and made a note to mention from what I have read, I was mistaken and meant to reference (Shaw barrels) I don't have any firsthand experiance with either . I think you are the first person I have heard of that has a 26" barrel on an AR. I have found a complete upper for sale at Model 1 sales with a 1-14 twist shaw barrel what would you think about going this route?.
 
it likely has too long of a throat, bu tthat does not mean it will not shoot. when you go 12/14 twist you are gonna shoot small bullets and you need a short throat. most reamers are just the opposite a hybrid reamer to allow shooting heavy bullets.
i guess you should ask them about the chamber/throat first.
the 26 " was so i could cut off the chamber and start over since the reamer was my design and was not sure it would work....its still at 26" 10 years later....
mike in co
stall said:
Mike .2s is very accurate and I would be happy with a AR that would consistantly hold twice that. I mentioned I was suspect about the accuracy of hart barrels and made a note to mention from what I have read, I was mistaken and meant to reference (Shaw barrels) I don't have any firsthand experiance with either . I think you are the first person I have heard of that has a 26" barrel on an AR. I have found a complete upper for sale at Model 1 sales with a 1-14 twist shaw barrel what would you think about going this route?.
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Earliar this year I had the same bug. I ordered a Model 1 Sales complete upper kit. It came with a 8 twist Shaw barrel. (I know Shaw sucks). Anyway it is 20 inches long, varmint contour. I also ordered a Bushmaster lower. The model 1 kit comes with all the parts and options you want. I worked over the trigger with some JP springs and honing. Loaded up some Varget and 70 berger VLD's. Easily shoots .250 moa. I just competed in a Varmint Steel Challenge Match 2 weeks ago and did every bit as good as the guys that showed up with their 1000yd guns. There was some pessemists who said I wouldnt knock over the longer range tartgets. I did fail to topple one at 500m. 2x3 squirrels at 200m, 4x5 crouching rabbits at 300m, 3x8 tall rockchucks at 385m and sitting coyote at 500m. 2 sighters for each distance. A leupold Mark AR scope for optics. The scope turrets are calibrated for 55gr bullets. I found my load was within a click at each distance with the VLD'S. All shot from a bipod and no rear rest and Prone. Would I order another one from them? Hell yes! 6.5 Sporter is next. Oh, by the way, I have assembled and sold 2 others and they shot the same.

Blagg Rifles
 
build your own better rifle

You can easily/cheaply put together an upper that will beat any off-the-shelf upper. Buy a lightweight 16" barrel from White Oak (www.whiteoakarms.com) with a target crown, then glue it in with Loctite red to a DPMS competition receiver from Brownells. Use a low-profile gas block and a free-float forearm (that you must cut for length for the White Oak mid-length gas tube). Would be best if you faced the receiver with a Brownell facing tool but the DPMS receivers are already pretty true. Mod 1 uppers are not in the same league as this.

If I've done it correctly, attached is a photo of one such rifle with match sights
 

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Well i did it. I bought the first parts towards my AR build. I bought a rock river stripped lower with a parts kit. Now i need to find a good solid upper. I want to have a quad type forearm so i can hang a surefire flashlight for night time coyote hunting. Those little lights sure put out some power. I am thinking a 16" varmint upper would work nicely. Olympic arms is supposed to make some great barrels so maybe i will buy one of those uppers? They have a FIRSH rail forearm that is pretty affordable. Anyone here have an A2 type butt-stock to sell? I didnt think i or we were going to go through with all this but what the heck! Lee
 
Lee I am at the same stage as you are I have just the lower. I hvae been talking to Compass lake and I think they are going to chamber a Douglas Stainless in 223 remington with a 1-14 twist. This should work well for launching the 40 grain bullets at coyotees.
 
Stall
I think i want to shoot a 55gr v-max. I love the way those 55gr v-max explode on the inside of a coyote cavity. No exit most shots! I dont know what i will do. Heck i may just buy a rock river upper as well. That predator pursuit upper looks like a pretty good compromise between varmint/ tactical? Well see!! Lee
 
my mommy not to say anything if i could not say somethen nice...........
is that a politie enough comment on your bbl choice ??
frank white at cle...now he does great bbls.
he no longer does custom work, but back when he did, and i did nto have my lathe, he did the chamber on my ar15 BR rifle.
mike in co
 
That was very polite your mom taught you well. I considered a Lilja or a Shilen but in reality the rifle is only going to be used for ranges of 300 yards or so. I do most of my coyote hunting at night and can't see any farther than that to shoot anyway. So I just couldent justify the extra money. If Im making a mistake please chime In I am all ears.
 
buy a factory armalite for a reasonable price, ss and will shoot well......i believe they have a ss 1/8 16...
mike in co
stall said:
That was very polite your mom taught you well. I considered a Lilja or a Shilen but in reality the rifle is only going to be used for ranges of 300 yards or so. I do most of my coyote hunting at night and can't see any farther than that to shoot anyway. So I just couldent justify the extra money. If Im making a mistake please chime In I am all ears.
Click to expand...
 
an option for tight money...
buy a shot out cmp high power ar bbl.
shot out to them is not being able to shoot 12" at 600 or for a high master 6" at 600.
these bbls will often shoot 2 or less at 300 and can be had for 40-50 bucks if u ask around
mike in co
 
In my experience, any rifles chambered for a .224.......................

bullet using .222; .223; .222Mag; 5.6X50 cases, work better with a 12" twist or quicker.
I think sometimes we get TOO specialized, "Welp, at 20yds, I used the 40Grnr w/th' 8" twist an' th' Clyde & Byed chamber, but th' kicker came when all th' yotees come out th'bar, fallin' all over, an', since it was 2hunnert yds, I quick-changed to the Nizwonger upper an' th' 106's with the cups reamed t' take th' .50(BM) primers, an'....":eek::eek:

Hey, if you're going to shoot a VARMINT(or, should that be, VarMint??) bullet AT a VARMINT, instead of MKs, don't you think you should be thinking of 12" or 10" twists, and 50-64gr bullets, instead of reeling off #s in thousandths?? Remember, its a LIVE target, you are responsible for DROPPPING IT, rather than letting it get away wounded.

One thing about an AR VarMint rifle, the bullet has to fit in the case, and then that case has to fit IN the magazine, unless you're going to use it as a bolt-gun.....

Another thing, in case anyone forgets, the twist on an AR was changed because the longer bullet didn't stabilize properly in the 14" twist in cold weather. "However, shooting on the beach under umbrellas, fellas, we can use....." :D
 
Brian what experiance do you have with rifles chambered for a .224....................... using a 1-14 twist. I am guessing not much if your advocating buying a 1-10 or 1-12 twist for a short 40G bullet.
 
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