A modest propoal . . .

Charles

I don't get it. I'm agreeing with you that a shoot off scenario might work.

What's up?

I know I travel more to Nationals Chamapionships than you, so if we had a shoot off system in place would you go to Pella, maybe Byers, CO????

Again it has to be more than just a regular match or how can you call it a National Championship. Shoot one target per class the first day, don't win either relay and then turn around and go home. That's no fun. I won't be there.

Dave
 
Charles Dave Lee &Phil

I myself would like to have a three day shoot at our club, but do you think we could you get that many people together for three days? I'd like to shoot the whole week myself. Light,then heavy or even mix it up, two lights one day, two heavys or what ever.Then there's the expense of paying the pit people another day but I think we would be able to pull our own targets for three days, if we just had two matches a day. I don't agree that winning relays is the best way to determine an overall winner. Where you place compared to everyone seems the better way to go as far as I can see. I do get your point about getting stuck in bad conditions in a relay, luck is a big factor in this game. And as you seen at the world open the good guns win!


Joe Salt
 
Joe, I'll allow that good guns won. Some good guns didn't win, either. As you know, the heavy gun overall winner caught a bad relay in Light Gun.

* * *

2009 World Open, Light Gun, Match 2, Relay 8

Name Group Score
Jeff Snyder 24.243 79
Bob Rosen 30.413 75
Edward Oncay 26.565 74
Charles Ellertson 33.108 71
Ken House 34.290 67
Mark Simpson 29.590 65
Kathy Saltalamachia 38.788 65
Tom Murtiff 29.678 64
James Carley 31.809 64
David Parker 30.767 63
Johnathan Wentworth 32.250 63
W. Egan O'Brien 0.000 0

* * *

I'm about done with this thread. I think it is an idea worth trying, in some form. But I seem to be getting myself backed into a corner, having to defend something that hasn't been thought through or tried, and I'm not sure is the best way to go. I'll be an advocate for at least giving it a try at a level down from the Nationals or the WO, & see where (if ever tried) it leads.

Charles
 
Charles E

I'm not saying we can't work something out, I hope you now I would try anything at least once. Thats one reason I don't like typing, my Ideas on the web. People take you the wrong way. I'd rather talk on the phone.
315-342-3088 Or e-mail me yours. jsaltal1@twcny.rr.com

Joe
 
Charles E
At a NBRSA Nationals like the ones held in Sacramento its a 3 day match.We shoot 3 relays per day but they rotate each day so you will end up shooting early one day mid morning one day and around noon time one day.

We had only 80 lightguns and 80 heavyguns at our biggest match so roughly 27 shooters per relay.The range has 40 concrete benches so if the total number of shooters ever exceeded 120 in a class were out of luck with our current set-up.

What happens at our matches is day 1 is usually the longest day because of late sign-ups and all the necessary safety stuff and getting the newer shooters settled in on running the pits properly.We normaly go hot for relay 1 at 8AM but at a Nationals this can get pushed out until 9-9:30AM on day one and relay 3 will finish at 2PM.
On day 3 of the match the 1st relay will go hot by 8.05AM and the 3rd relay will finish right after high noon.
If you get on relay 1 the first day your shooting times will be something like this 9:30 10:15 and 11:00 AM for your start times for the 3 days.
If you get on relay 3 the first day your start times will look like this 1:00 PM 8:15 AM 9:45 AM

I was on the relay from hell this year at the 600 yard nationals and my first target in lightgun and my first target in heavygun were both shot differently than my second targets.I did this to see which method would work and my overall finish was mid pack.If I could have dropped the first target in lightgun and the first target in heavygun I would have finished very well.

To my way of thinking the only way we could have improved our system with regards to the bad relay problem would be to synchronise the relay start times each and every day.Each day relay 1 would start at the same time it started on for the first day of the match even if that meant we would have to sit around quite awhile on the 3rd day of shooting.
You would still get different weather but it would be closer.

I think your idea has merit but it sounds like you don't have enough benches to pull it off.If you had 40 benches shooting on each relay you could each shoot 2 targets per gun and the 4-5 best agg's would advance.This would give each shooter 4 lightgun targets and 4 heavygun targets the first two days then on sunday morning you would have your shoot-off and awards presentation.

To get the over-all winner you would get 1 point for winning lightgun group and 1 point for winning lightgun score.2 points for second place 3 points for third etc etc etc.The lowest total number of points for lightgun group lightgun score heavygun group and heavygun score wins the match.
Waterboy aka Lynn
 
lynn

You bring a point that has bugged me for several years now about how we(IBS)determine the overall winner at the Nationals. A shooter is assigned a number representing his or her placement in the standings. Those four numbers are added together and the lowest number is declared the winner. There is no allowance in those four placement numbers for carrying any competetive advantage you gained and earned to the calculations for the overall two gun championship.

Example:

ranking
shooter A #1 had LT Gun Gp agg of 4.5"
shooter B #2 had LT Gun Gp agg of 4.6"
shooter C #3 had LT Gun Gp agg of 5.65"
shooter D #4 had Lt Gun Gp agg of 5.75"


shooters A&B put some distance between themself and the rest of the field in Light Gun.

ranking
shooter C #1 Hvy Gun Gp 6.45"
shooter D #2 Hvy Gun Gp 6.56"
shooter B #3 Hvy Gun Gp 6.87"
shooter A #4 hvy Gun Gp 7.10"

The way we do it know we would have.

shooter A would have 5 pts and a group of agg 5.800"
shooter B would have 5 pts and a group of agg 5.735"
shooter C would have 4 pts and a group of agg 6.050"
shooter D would have 6 pts and a group of agg 6.150"

Shooter C moved to first place, in the group part of the two gun, even though he was handly beaten by two other shooters who are now in second and third place.

The same can and does happen on the score side. The only way to be totaly fair is to shoot shoulder to shoulder in an elimanation style match as Charles has suggested.
The next best thing for the IBS is instead of using the rankings in the four categories would be to agg the score from Lt & Hvy and Gp from Lt & Hvy. Then you could, in a fair manner, use the rankings to establish a two gun Champ.

Dave
 
We tried it at Williamsport

Several years ago we had this proposal brought forward and it was actively discussed by the board. Several issues, as I recall, were big problems. How to explain to the shooters how they could lose to a shooter who shot bigger or had a lower score than they did and won the match. Tie breakers, scoring, etc were all issues. We wanted to take the luck of the draw out of the equation and reinsert skill. Unbeknown-st to most of the shooters, we ran a "shadow" program during the WO to see if the results would be different. We awarded points for a relay win in both score and group. In our test the high points were awarded by placement in the relay with the highest aggregate points winning in both categories and two gun. The results were astonishing!!! The winner in both categories and two gun were on the lower end of the top 10 and a mile away from the actual winners. We really tried to evaluate how to explain this to the shooters and couldn't come up with an equitable way.
I feel the best way to take the luck out of the mix is to have more relays. We started down this path at Williamsport with the addition of three more targets but bench space and a pit rebuild has put this plan on the back burner.
The elimination matches would be interesting.
 
Benches

Even in a somewhat good relays people still complain about the bench they were on, that the wind was blowing the wrong way for that bench. Sorry but there is no sure fire way to fix this. Even 150 Benches will not help. I've been doing this for 37 year and have seen it all, Just shoot and have a good time!
Hope the wind is in your favor

P.S.I wan't to know how to get rid of that one shot that is always the problem.

Joe Salt
 
This spring in Pella, Several of us ( some of which are "powers that be" for the nats)were talking about the weather. It was about an hour before dark, and it was DEAD CALM. Someone mentioned that the last two or three relays on day one at last year's IBS Nats. got near perfect weather. It was also mentioned that the groups wern't any smaller, overall.


Now, this having been said, It is obvious that one can not control the weather. BUT.....it is fairly common that the weather "settles down" near the end of the day....generaly. The same with the mornings.... It was said at the afore mentioned B.S. session that there was "no way N L " we were going to shoot that late at the Nat's just to get the whole thing over a little quicker so people could get an earlier start home after the match!! Trying to squeeze in just one more set of relays just to make the next day's shoot shorter probably won't happen this year.

Just my .02 worh......I have no imput on the subject of match format.....If I shoot a 20+ inch group....I will keep shooting(I had a 17+ incher last year :mad:)There is no way N L I would quit and leave........these things are "way much big fun" for me.

Like I said, we can not control the weather. But not starting to early and not try and shoot to late will help negate some of the weather variences. The rest is up to Mother Nature. And, we all know how she can be!!!

Tod
 
Last night I got back and typed up a pretty big post detailing the additional possibility of shooting 3 targets but agging only 2, sorta like having one group/score not kill you in the 6 match agg, but that of course puts PA out of the choices for venue due to time and number of shooters. I won't get into it now and I'd love to know what I did to not post that post... :( :confused: Anyhow, I unfortunately agree with most of what's been said both pro and con. I second Charles idea that folks willing to persue this line of thought discuss some proposals further.

We've all seen enough of shooting to know that no matter what someone says will work, someone else will disagree. It's shooter, ahemm, I mean, human nature.

Please don't include Joe in any discussion. After the last few opens, I think we know why he/Kathy are gonna lobby for keeping the same format...
 
4Mesh

Sorry, But I would like to have a match with anyone pick your bench head to head any conditions and show you its about barrels and Bullets!
 
Correct Joe, but the discussion is about trying to find a way to keep it about barrels and bullets, and not about barrels, bullets and the weather. If the weather can be even partially removed from the equasion, then the end result could be more fair for everyone. And, Everybody is aware that there's no way to fix everything.

Anyhow, ya got a new granddaughter today, quit bein so crabby! Hehe
 
One thing I think Phil is forgetting -- I could be wrong -- is the score element. As a part of writing this thread, I thought some about how I shoot. In my mind, I always shoot for a small group, but usually, I won't give up on score just to shoot a small group. And as I shoot, I remember holding off in the white, where there is no good aiming point, because I think I see a wind shift.

Now, holding "somewhere in the white" frequently isn't the best idea if you're shooting for group. For starters, you can't hold to the same exact point twice. Once you leave the blue aiming square, you're in no mans land.

And I have gone to National matches with rifles that aren't quite capable of shooting winning groups, particular if Regan Green is there with his "double 4" barrel. (The one that shot two groups in the 4s at the 2005 IBS Nationals.) I still did OK. The HG would shoot an honest 7-inch group, the LG an honest 5.5. That's not good enough to WIN a group match at the National level. But score pays as much as group. At Iowa, I didn't catch the relay from hell; shot decent groups and good scores; got a top-10 placing.

A large part of it is bullets and barrels. Maybe over 50%. Not 100%. Strategy enters into it. (& BTW Phil, not all ranges are as squirrely as Williamsport or the old Hawks Ridge.

* * *

You could try an elimination approach even in a 1-day match. Instead of passing only relay winners into a single shootoff, add another round of intermediate shootoffs, and pass the top X in each relay. Then pass on the winners (or however many-ers) of the intermediate shootoff so there is a final relay of head to head for the match. You could pass on the top groups & scores without differentiating until the final, or not. For that matter, everybody in the final could be shooting for both. Lots of things could be tried in a fun shoot that is outside the formal ones for the 10-match agg.

Charles
 
We often talked of a fun money shoot at the Williamsport range. Everybody antes up the fee, three winners from each relay in both categories advance, etc, etc until there are three left. Shoot off for one, two and three in each category- score and group.
Say 100 shooters show up. 10 relays of 10 shooters, refines to 6 relays of 10 shooters (group and score) to two relays of 9 shooters (1 for group 1 for score) to two relay of 3 shooters for each category to determine 1st 2nd and 3rd place. With some fast scoring and rearranging this could be pulled off in one day. You could have light gun on Saturday, heavy on Sunday. If the fee were say $50 per shooter , taking out a range fee, the payoff could be substantial.
Tod as far as shooting later- at Williamsport we are constrained by our lease as to how late we can shoot. 8PM on Sat and 5PM on Sun.
 
We often talked of a fun money shoot at the Williamsport range. Everybody antes up the fee, three winners from each relay in both categories advance, etc, etc until there are three left. Shoot off for one, two and three in each category- score and group.
Say 100 shooters show up. 10 relays of 10 shooters, refines to 6 relays of 10 shooters (group and score) to two relays of 9 shooters (1 for group 1 for score) to two relay of 3 shooters for each category to determine 1st 2nd and 3rd place. With some fast scoring and rearranging this could be pulled off in one day. You could have light gun on Saturday, heavy on Sunday. If the fee were say $50 per shooter , taking out a range fee, the payoff could be substantial.
Frank, I was never around for that discussion but of course, I live too close to live up there on match weekends. I don't know what potions you guys cooked up in the cauldrons at night.

I would say you should have been more vocal about that stuff but since I know you and your friends, I'll just let that alone. :p

Tod as far as shooting later- at Williamsport we are constrained by our lease as to how late we can shoot. 8PM on Sat and 5PM on Sun.
Here in PA the club pretty much has the ultimate agreement, but, there's a few ground rules. Give the leaseholder and the municipality no reason to become disgruntled. We are bound by an agreement, and be it just giving our word, or a written law, honoring our part is very important. Both parties dictate that we shoot only within the agreed upon times of day, so dreaming up match rules that will cause us to break those agreements is out of the question. Our current format and attendance at the WO puts us at, or near the limit now, so any intentional increase in time is just not possible. All of us at all ranges work within whatever restrictions we are bound to and this just happens to be one of ours. It's not a big deal, folks still have lots of fun here, but using more time simply isn't in the cards. Not here. If Mom and Dad say be in by midnight, They do not mean 12:01. Don't push your luck.

So for those folks reading the thread thinking that the Williamsport shooters are some sort of stick-in-the-muds or afraid of 3/4/5 target aggs, it's not that. It's just that reality sets in with our lease and agreements to the township.

Charles, one thing I never forget is score. I do talk group when discussing just cause it's sort of universally understood, but I tend to favor score myself just cause it's where I've been more fortunate in my own shooting.

After spending a few days thinking about this elimination style of scoring, boy, score really throws a stick in the spokes. Makes a guy wonder if somewhere in the last 40 years. somebody ain't already considered this sort of thing.
 
Remember now, I don't shoot, and I'm not interested in any administration tasks! (That's whats so great about this is I could sit here and think up a hell of a lot of work for somebody else)

I just had another idea pop in my head. How bout this.

Make the match an "Invitational" match, dependant upon the results of say 4 regular season matches. Using PA as an example, or any other range really, take matches 3/4/5/6 and 3match agg the results, then take the top 40/50% shooters in those matches to be eligible for a one day 2 class shootoff at some central venue that pays prizes.

Sounds kewl eh? Benefits the clubs cause it pays on shooting well in the regular matches, which helps attendnce for those who want to have the opportunity to participate, and you could have ALL the clubs under any sanctioning body get together to participate for eligilibility cause after the results are tallied, all you've done by shooting at your own local club is earn the right to shoot in a head to head showdown for the prizes somewhere.

Ok, I'll stop thinking now. I've had too much beer. Somebody go do the paperwork on that! Lol

Once again though, this would be separate from the WO / Nats cause making folks ineligible for those matches makes no sence for the sport.

Might be fun?
 
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Once again though, this would be separate from the WO / Nats cause making folks ineligible for those matches makes no sence for the sport.
QUOTE]

Been on the phone talking with a fellow shooter and he mentioned something kind of interesting.
If he doesn't get to shoot the same number of targets as the next guy and he has spent the same amount of money he won't be shooting at that match anymore.
If a shooter shows up in a carpool type arrangement and just watches all of these elimination type relays because of a lousy first day he most likely won't want to do it again next year.
Waterboy aka Lynn
 
Been on the phone talking with a fellow shooter and he mentioned something kind of interesting.
If he doesn't get to shoot the same number of targets as the next guy and he has spent the same amount of money he won't be shooting at that match anymore. Waterboy aka Lynn
Why is that interesting? I may be missing something, but to me, this seems a variation on "if I don't get my way, I'll hold my breath until I turn blue." Would he/she be satisfied those -- and only those -- who were eliminated got to fire a full clip out of a class-3 weapon?

Edit:

Please too remember the context of this thread. Both IBS and Pennsyvania already have, for most matches, an elimination system. You don't get to shoot for the match win unless you win your relay. The context of this thread is that our usual system is abandoned for the Nationals.
 
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Charles
I think the shooter was saying he likes the way you run the matches for the big shoots and not the other ones were one bad target ends your shooting.
Waterboy
 
It's Still the Wind...

So.

I'm at Monday morning 1000 yd. practice at Sacramento.

I've driven 350 miles to do this.

[Actually, this is a lie. I've spent the last four days bobbing around San Francisco Bay trolling off a sloop for Halibut and Stripers.

It is true that I'm an easy 350 miles from home.]

Our small group of shooters is dawdling.

Personally, I arrived early.

To avoid the wind?

We set targets, and Jerry Tierney and I shoot first.

Set up, Jerry asks me where he should set his scope. He has it at a no wind center.

How should I know? It's his home range.

He owns it.

Pulling a number out of hat, I suggest six MOA.

I've shot 1000 yards there once before.

It's not a bad guess.

A five MOA adjustment of his scope puts him in the X ring.

Did I say five MOA?

Did I say this changes from minute to minute, no, second to second?

Did I say that with my load, six MOA represents the far left side of the 1,000 yard target to the far right side?

I manage the office for a really great target rifle outfit, and our assumption is that your rifle is accurate.

And you can craft good loads.

At 600 or 1000 yards this leaves wind.

You had better be able to work with the wind.

And isn't this the way it should be?

Hell... we don't even hold our rifles.

They ride in elaborate rests.

Many of us use joysticks to aim them.

I'll be happy to let you know when I want to compete in an event that judges the barrel maker or bullet maker more than the shooter.

Charles, if I owe you an apology, you have it.

I have no disrespect.

I do, however, believe that these events are as much art as science, and way more luck than we're willing to admit.

I will say that I am grateful to be shooting NBRSA events, judged on both group and score, and where everyone shoots the entire event.

If you folk choose to shoot qualifiers, so much the better, but let's call them qualifiers.

Sign me,

RBD

Happy to be shooting at Sacramento.

Where you better be able to decipher those flags.
 
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