A Barrel That

Jerry, I agree with you

JLG. said:
Harry this was my point if all guns was tuned right and left alone we would see alot more higher scores and different winners.How can someone that has never shot there gun when it was tuned be able to figure out if it was the wind or the gun??? That would be like practicing(sp?) with wolf you wouldnt know if it was you or the ammo.I would venture to say 85% of the guns out there are good guns they just need tuned or just need good ammo.But then again what do I know Im just a dumb'ol Redneck:eek: Jerry
Ps. this is a killer thread!!
Click to expand...


I don't claim to be any kind of expert in this crowd, but I have found 2 things.

1. My main rifle seems to shoot Lapua at about 265 and Eley EPS at 250.
2. During a match, any time I ever changed the tuner, it was because I was grasping at an answer, I have always wound shooting a couple sighters and putting it right back where it was.

I too believe there are alot of rifles not shooting to thier potential for alot of reasons....tuning only being one.

I would be interested to hear what Harry and you Jerry have to say about tuning.

Most are not confident in themselves to be able to shoot and know if it was the wind, rifle tuning, or thier inability to judge conditions that made the shot go away from the rest.

What are your thoughts on a tuner setting that will make the rifle shoot one little hole yet another that is optimal for less movement in the wind. Do the two go hand in hand?

I personally am a believer that since you want that bullet to settle down just as soon as it leaves the muzzle that you should not overlook what is happening at short ranges.

Some will ask, so you mean to tell me that a bullet can be off at say 20 yards and somehow get back on course at 50 to shoot a good group? I say no, but everything I have been able to find in ballistics refers to a bullet leaving the muzzle traveling in a "helix" around the trajectory path that is wide as it leaves the muzzle and continuing to settle into the path of trajectory down range. I would expect this is what we call the bullet settling down.

Should we be working to tune this more towards the bench end of the range AND the target end? Do the two necessarily go hand in hand?

I'm interested in your thoughts on this and specifically if you were handed a new rifle that had never been tuned, and a dozen lots of ammo. What steps specifically would you take to have confidence you had wringed the first and last bit of accuracy with the combination you chose?

Thanks in advance.

Charlie Peters
 
Charlie..

I Have Wrote Alot On This Subject On Earlier Post Ect.. If You Can Not Find Any Thing Then We Can Touch On It Later.. I Will Say Briefly That It Dont Matter How Much You Tune A Barrel If The Barrel Aint No Good.. You Can Tell This Pretty Fast When Youn First Start To Shoot It.. You Will Still Have To Tune It The Best You Can But This Wont Make It Shoot In The Wind!! It Will Only Help To A Certain Degree If The Barrel Aint That Good... Dj.. New Barrel Or Old? You Have To Watch Out For Them Old Farts Like Craig! They Will Try To Whoop You And Then Braig About It... Charlie.. I Think There Was A Real Long Post On Tunning A Rifle A While Back.. If I Recall You Ask Be About It And That Got The Post Started.. I Could Be Wrong Though... :):):) Harry...
 
cpeters said:
I don't claim to be any kind of expert in this crowd, but I have found 2 things.

1. My main rifle seems to shoot Lapua at about 265 and Eley EPS at 250.
2. During a match, any time I ever changed the tuner, it was because I was grasping at an answer, I have always wound shooting a couple sighters and putting it right back where it was.

I too believe there are alot of rifles not shooting to thier potential for alot of reasons....tuning only being one.

I would be interested to hear what Harry and you Jerry have to say about tuning.

Most are not confident in themselves to be able to shoot and know if it was the wind, rifle tuning, or thier inability to judge conditions that made the shot go away from the rest.

What are your thoughts on a tuner setting that will make the rifle shoot one little hole yet another that is optimal for less movement in the wind. Do the two go hand in hand?

I personally am a believer that since you want that bullet to settle down just as soon as it leaves the muzzle that you should not overlook what is happening at short ranges.

Some will ask, so you mean to tell me that a bullet can be off at say 20 yards and somehow get back on course at 50 to shoot a good group? I say no, but everything I have been able to find in ballistics refers to a bullet leaving the muzzle traveling in a "helix" around the trajectory path that is wide as it leaves the muzzle and continuing to settle into the path of trajectory down range. I would expect this is what we call the bullet settling down.

Should we be working to tune this more towards the bench end of the range AND the target end? Do the two necessarily go hand in hand?

I'm interested in your thoughts on this and specifically if you were handed a new rifle that had never been tuned, and a dozen lots of ammo. What steps specifically would you take to have confidence you had wringed the first and last bit of accuracy with the combination you chose?

Thanks in advance.

Charlie Peters
Click to expand...

Charlie how are you doing? I may not be the best to answer this because I have a person that tunes all my guns and he is darn good at it.The guns that I have tuned I start with a proven lot of ammo and shoot 3 shot groups without the tuner on it.Im looking for small round groups with a single hole that looks like it was shot with a pellet gun. I change the torque of the action screws until I cant get my groups any smaller.I like for the gun to be able to shoot 2000+ targets.Then I preceed with the muzzle tuner and get all I can get from there.If things isnt looking good I would go with a mid barrel tuner.I have had good ammo that I could see in my scope that would corkscrew from the 11'0clock portion of my scope then fall dead center of the target all this seems to happen just feet in front of the target.But all the great ammo I have had you wouldnt see this. lapua midas-L 4017 multimatch 3050p or eley black 1006-4112 you wouldnt see the bullet just a nice little black hole and it seemed less wind sensitive.In 2002 or 2003 work was slow for me and I couldnt buy a case of ammo all at once I would buy a brick or two at a time that was my best year shooting I shot 14 different lot numbers of lapua that year with the tuner staying set at 210 never had to move it. Here is a question for Hoke you wrote a artical for PS magazine on magical 185 setting was that 185 clicks from zero or 185 on the tuner.The reason I ask is my gun was 185 clicks from zero and it read 210 I know of several other guns that shot on 210 or real close to it. Charlie Im sorry for the long post I hope I answered your question.Jerry
 
Harry you are right some barrels are like 7-up never had it never will!! But you will be able to tell real fast.Jerry
 
Jerry and Harry and all those interested,
I have seen the corksrewing effect on a bullet from my Rem. 541-T HBL. I was shooting a 16X scope at the time and could not shoot free recoil so it was easier to see. Now I shoot a custom gun with a 36X scope free recoil and no longer see the radial trajectory that I once saw. I can't say that my current gun is in "extreme" tune but it shoots well. I have a question for the two of you, since it seems that some guns will have less wind drift than others (i.e. .128" vs. .500" drift sitting side-by-side), would it be possible that the gun that shot .128" to be less predictable that the gun shooting .500" in the wind for score? I don't trust myself in the wind and usually am reminded by my gun that I made the mistake. My gun's tune (interestlingly is 186 for Hoke's concern) I've never changed it since I bought it used already tuned. I know I'm crazy for that since I may find it to be better at a different setting but shooting more ammo is expensive when I struggle financially to shoot as much as I do. I just wonder about the predictability of certain guns and will tell those that have never seen it the radial trajectory is a real thing. Anyone wishing to see it should shoot my Rem. 541 T-HBL. I hope I helped some and questioned the rest to get those cogs going to help others (including myself).

Carp
 
Free recoil

I often see this spiraling effect when shooting free recoil. As my rifles are set up the track straight back and never leave the target. Some times the light isn't quite right, and I miss it. It's even more pronounced at 100 yards. You would swear, the bullet missed the POI by a mile. Maybe it's just an optical illusion.
 
Carp.

If The Gun That Shoots .500 Shoots Better In The Wind Then It Will Be More Predictable Than The Other... I Have Had Guns That Would Be Better In No Wind But Would Not Be A Winner In Bad Conditions.. If You Are Going To Shoot For Score In Matches Which Are Moslty In Breezy Conditions Then Shoot The Gun That Is Less Wind Sensitive... Charlie.. I Tune My Guns Indoors At Closer Ranges With A Controlled Temp.. This Way When You Have Any Bad Shots You Will Know If Its Tuner Or Ammo.. If You Are Testing Ammo Then You Can Look For Any Bad Shots..... I Have Found That If Bedding Is Correct Then When You Tighten Screw It Should Bottom Fast...so It Dont Matter If Your Action Is At 10-50 Inch Lbs It Wont Change Poi... If It Does Bedding Is Nor Correct... I Keep Mine On 30-35 Inch Lbs.. Check It A Week Or So Later Then It Should Be The Exact Same.. If Not Then Its Moving In Your Action... I Have A Indicator That Darrel Horsley Made Me.. So When I Check My Bedding I Can Tighten It From Ten To Fifty Inch Lbs And I Dont Want No More Than A 1000th Movement.... You Can Se Your Bullet Alot Of Time .. Like Fred Said It Depends On Lighting... :):):) Harry....
 
Thanks Harry,

Harry,

Yes I knew your response from a previous thread....was mainly hoping to get your thoughts to some of the new folks following your very informative thread, I think that helps fill in some of the blanks here.

It is a nice change of pace to see how positive and serious this thread has stayed unlike some of the informative threads of recent. I think it shows the respect on this forum for the individuals that have donated useful information.

Charlie
 
Thanks Big Macky

I Knew It Was There Somewhere... With All The Good Barrel Makers And Good Ammo Around We Should Not Have Much Trouble Getting A Good Barel.... You Might Have To Go Through A Few But With The Price Of Ammo Sometimes This Is Better... You Can Waste A Few Bricks Of Ammo Real Quick Through A Barrel That Aint So Good.. And When A Gunsmith Puts One For You He Really Dont Know How Exactly Its Going To Turn Out... If Every Thing Comes Together Good Then You Are Set... But All The Little Things Have Got To Be Right... All Of Them... Boythis Br Shooting Is Tough Sometimes! Its A Little Like Nascar Because You Dont Really Know Whats Going To Happen That Day... :):):) Harry..
 
Got It, forgot about the other. Request was mostly for newcomers.
Thanks
Fred K
 
Patriot said:
I'm in the process or working out how I might use two chronographs to do just that. If someone has already gone down this path and it is not measurable, please stop me. Any input is welcome. Here are my thoughts:
1) Compare two chronographs measuring any differences in their calibration.
2) Run the test at 100 yards to increase the variation
3) Run identical test cases using different rifles, ammo, tuners, wax, etc. for windy and calm conditions
4) Perform a statistical evaluation of the numbers to see what factors caused the greatest velocity loss (increased drag)
5) Compare the velocity loss to observed wind drift results, taking the 12/6 and 3/9 o'clock wind vector components into account.
Click to expand...

Lilja and Sierra have a couple of interesting article. It looks like I need to factor in the density altitude when doing comparisons. But, using two chronographs seems to be the correct approach. In effect, I would be calculating difference BC's for a given rifle/bullet/tuner configuration in different winds.

http://www.riflebarrels.com/articles/bullets_ballastics/measure_ballistic_coefficients.htm

http://www.exteriorballistics.com/ebexplained/5th/2311.cfm

Lilja also says that bullet imbalance would cause increased groups dispersion with faster twist barrels. This probably relates to uneven wax, but not wind.

Mark
 
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