A Barrel That

Harry,
I apologize if I related too much to the thread. I'd like to see what some of the smiths could add to the thread too, but don't look like it's going to happen.
On interior dimensions, I personally don't think bore size, within reason is the key. I've seen .215/.220 bored barrels shoot exceptionally well. Some of my best ones are in the region of those dimensions give or take a tenth or two here or there. Iprefer the tighter bores becasue I've had good luck with them.
I think you hit on it with the barrel needing to be round so it doesn't distort the bullet base as it leaves the crown, and too the barrel needs to be such that it keeps a consistent lube base over a long string of shots, and such that it'll take some fouling and keep shooting X's.
Some of 'em shoot like a house on fire for one card, and then need a thorough cleaning to shoot the next card, and some of 'em will shoot all day with just a dry patch between cards and do very well.
 
Harry -Thanks for starting this thread. If everyone would do as you asked we could get some information that would help all of us. The ones that already have effects figured out already know what the deal is. I will watch this thread with a great deal of intrest and I hope I learn something. I am not interested in who I beat or who beats who. I want to go to every match and just try to improve from match to match. garrisone.
 
Thats What

Its All About Trying To Help Each Other.. Garrisone.. Your Outlook Is Great.. Trying To Learn What Can Make Things Better And Sharing What We Know.. Kent .. As Always You Are Willing To Give Some Good Advice From All Of Your Experience.. Bill Myers Is The Only Gunsmith That Has Come In Here And Tried To Help.. He Like Me Does Not Worry About What Some Might Think.. I Aint No Gunsmith But When A Rifle Is Put Together There Are More Than One Right Way To Do Things. There Is Nothing In Concrete On Some Subjects.. On Others There Is.. A Gun That Shoots In The Zeros Is Not No Good If It Dont Shoot In The Wind!!!. I Think Some Shooters Think Its The Ammo That Makes A Gun Shoot In The Wind But That Is Not So.. We Can Add More To That Later If Some Shooters Want To Comment On That.... Happy New Year To All,, :):):) Harry..
 
Save time and money

The details of a great rifle are many and we continue to muddle within those details trying to determine the cause of the effect. Bill Calfee seems to have that as a life goal and I'm sure others as well. The idea of course is the ability to fabricate a competitive rifle every time. With that idea comes the implication that it ain't happening now. It happens, but not every time. The evidence points to a synergistical relationship of the parts leaving us in a nebula with no way home. The subject is interesting for sure but some of us are old and the days go by......

From the previous sentence "It happens, but not every time", extract the words "It happens". Given a bit of agreement one could further conclude that the rifles we want already exist in some number. Not knowing why these rifles are "better" is not a problem. Not caring why, or caring why to insanity is not a problem. Not owning one of these rifles IS a problem.

Save your time and save your money - go buy one! Not build one - buy one!

If you completely disregard my suggestion as I know you will, please take a separate moment with the following.........

Harry wrote - "... EVEN IF YOU ARE A BETTER SHOT THE GUNS THAT SHOOT IN THE WIND WILL PREVAIL..." (Read this one over and over until you completely understand)

Joe Wrote - "There is no MAGIC, it's either a shooter or it's not...."
 
I do believe some rifles will never be winners because of some underlyng issue or issues. I also believe that there are alot of killer rifles out there that have either just not been tuned right, found the right ammo. Bad bedding, you name it.

I don't remember the story exactly but it seems to me that Dearl Lane bought his killer Time that he used to dominate the ARA nationals from someone as a "non shooter".

Charlie
 
explain why ammo such as Elley does better than others. What I hear a lot of you saying is ALL AMMO IS NOT CREATED EQUAL. I LOVE BENCHREST SHOOTING . I have learned a lot from some of you and my good friend Tom Flowers. There are so many factors to weigh. ammo -the -gun the wind etc. Then through in the price of a custom made gun it gets bewildering sometimes.I think I have a rifle that will shoot the wind at least that is what I learned from letting my friend Tom flowers help me set it up. He shoots my rifle far better than I can-this is another factor-the ability of the shooter to shoot and know his rifle.The club where I shoot is a young club and I had a opertunity to speak with the president of the club about a number of things involved with benchrest shooting. One of his remarks was he didn't want to see the club get into a money race to see who could buy the most exspensive gun. I don't see how it can't help but go the way of who can buy the top of the ladder equipment. I shoot indoors and I have seen that my rifle will shoot the wind out doors. Indoor and outdoor shooting is very different. In doors you don't worry so much about the effect of the wind but some times I wonder. I am trying to learn as much as I can. I don't compete with every shooter I compete with myself.When it gets to be no fun any more I will get out of it. I am looking foward to reading more you guys have to say about this subject.garrisone.
 
Wilbur

I Think You Have Been Eating At To Many Chinese Places.. We Are Just Common Folk Here So Try To Use English That We Can Understand.. But You Are Right, And I Know That Comes From Your Experience Over The Years Shooting Guns That Would Not Compete In Windy Conditions.. But One Thing You Are Forgeting. Very Few Killer Guns Are For Sale! Even At Big Prices .. And I Have Found That Most Shooters Would Rather Build Than Pay A Big Price.. When Its All Said And Done You Will Still Pay A Big Price To Build One And It Might Not Shoot.. People Think Why Is It For Sell! It Must Not Shoot That Well.. Just Common Nature... There Are Some Killer Guns Out There But Not To Sound Mean Or Nothing Most Cant Shoot Them Well Enough To Win With Them In Real Bad Conditions.. Wiil Explain More Later.. Thanks For The Comments And Lets Try To Learn More ... I Know That I Can Learn Alot From You Guys.. :):):) Harry..
 
When and who and how was the test conducted that PROVED that wind can have a different effect on bullets of same shape traveling at same velocity but from different barrels?
 
I too like the opinions that have been shared, Wilbur i understand, agree and will agree there are variables. I believe the Smiths have the best opportunity to work with the barrel manufactures to produce what they feel is that Holy Grail of a barrel, they are the ones I have to rely and trust. Good example BC with Lilja, Bill Meyers with BM. Do smiths agree with each other, don't know but does it make one way right and the other wrong. We have heard or even witnessed a rifle that's a killer, the characteristics of that particular barrel are not close to what we or smiths would agree with is the correct profile, but it just is for whatever reasons. There are no 2 barrels alike, and each rifle has it's own personality.

Then there are rifles like Charlie mentioned, a few that are not right from the start for whatever reason and others that have not been brought to their full potential and Folks give up on them.

If you are lucky enough to own one, treat it good.

Take Care.....Joe
 
pacecil said:
When and who and how was the test conducted that PROVED that wind can have a different effect on bullets of same shape traveling at same velocity but from different barrels?
Click to expand...

Never, Not & Nobody! If fired from different barrels/rifles, something ain't the same. That's the whole point.

We have fired rifles side by side at mostly the same instant and observed greater wind drift in both directions from one as opposed to the other - both rimfire and centerfire. We know the "phenomena" exists and would like to figure it out so that it's no longer a phenomena.
 
A question for Harry what do you think is more important a killer barrel or a good true action that a smith dont have to mess with??? I have my opinion I would like yours and know why you think that.Jerry
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pacecil
When and who and how was the test conducted that PROVED that wind can have a different effect on bullets of same shape traveling at same velocity but from different barrels?
Never, Not & Nobody! If fired from different barrels/rifles, something ain't the same. That's the whole point.

We have fired rifles side by side at mostly the same instant and observed greater wind drift in both directions from one as opposed to the other - both rimfire and centerfire. We know the "phenomena" exists and would like to figure it out so that it's no longer a phenomena.

Wilbur, you've raised your temperature to a boil. Let it rest (that is a cooking term LOL). The phenomena may be other variables like ammo and the shooter. I've seen some of my impacts be completely opposite of logical. If you get a left to right wind then the impact should be low and right and if you get a right to left wind then the impact should be high and left. Have you ever had a low and left impact or a high and right impact? Have you ever drilled 5 or more 100's (ARA) with a slight condition that is steady and then had a strange impact? Have you ever had to "back-door" on a hold-off? Have you ever just held center in a condition that told you not too and drilled 100's? It's more than is conceivable to shoot a 2500 ARA target. There have been, I assume 10's of thousands, in very good and predictable conditions, with very capable guns with killer barrels. But until this year, not any single gun, or single shooter had ever shot two.....not even in a row.....under identical conditions. The phenomena is something that a shooter that will shoot a 2500 takes and uses, but it is fleeting, because the very next card he shoots and tries it again....it's a solid 50. There are simply too many variables to explain why so many truly killer rifles don't shoot 2450's all the time in good conditions and........still wonder about that single shot. That phenomena works more than that, it works, well....just more than that. But pacecil brings a good point...................why is it different? Don't be mad at him for a VERY good question that many folks can't explain.

Carp
 
Carp

I think you may have misunderstood or I wrote something wrong. No big deal either way and I'm not mad at Paecil.

BTW - the side by side simultaneous firing takes the shooter out of the equation. About the only variable left is how the scope is zeroed and if it blows farther both ways that's gone.
 
Patriot said:
It applies to subsonic, just like the ME109. It is interesting the 2 and 4 groove shoot better. If the marks are in the flow, they might act like a tabulator and actually keep the flow laminar longer reducing drag. Ever notice the small pieces of metal in the leading edge of a wing or in front of a control surface? I'll do a little research.
Mark
Click to expand...

Most of the discussions have been around what factors with the rifle or ammo we can control to reduce wind drift, which makes sense. But, understanding what happens once the bullet leaves the barrel may help explain why those factors matter or don't. Interesting reading:

http://www.nennstiel-ruprecht.de/bullfly/index.htm#Figures

Since pistol bullets are subsonic their information may be more applicable than HP bullets. It appears that the flow is staying laminar most of the way down a standard shape bullet. But, the driving band on a target 22 has to be causing a huge shock wave. In fact, the bullet is designed more like a wad cutter.

Bill, did Eley use any shadow graphs when you were testing bullets?

http://www.rit.edu/~andpph/photofile-b/shadowgraph-bullet-1.jpg

It would be very interesting to see the Eley shape vs. a Wolf/SK/et all. Several have said the Eley was wind sensitive 2? years ago. Was that because the wax was non-uniform or was the shape of the bullet causing excessive drag?

If the rifling marks in the driving band are not buried in the boundary layer that might explain the 2-4 groove observation. Are 2-4 groove marks deeper than the 6+?

If all the factors we control in the end only reduce or increase drag, then if we can measure velocity differences accurately enough between the muzzle and 50 or 100 yards and if the drag variance is not lost in the usual variance in ammo speed, we might be able to measure the accuracy of a rifle for a given ammo and tuning setting.

Dang, this is getting interesting.

Mark
 
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Wind Effect???

This IS interesting. But so far that's all it is - interesting. Until someone can put some numbers with their observations, then it just a bunch of "thoughts". The statement that shooters side by side saw some different wind effect probably is true. But how much effect did they see? And what was the wind velocity while this took place? And was there any difference in bullet velocity, or yawing? YOU MUST PUT NUMBERS ON THESE THINGS AND PROBABLY A LOT OF OTHER THINGS BEFORE IT HAS ANY MEANING.

It's well known what factors affect a bullet's response to the wind and once you determine how these factors vary in the bullets flight then you can predict how it will react to the wind. Once you know how a bullet flies from a particular barrel you can predict how that bullet will be affected by the wind. If you run through calculations for this I think you will find there should be very little difference in wind effect on bullets out of good rimfire barrels. In other words; this is not an effect that is going to be easy to detect, much less measure. It's pretty much like the "tuner effect"; very small, very hard to measure, and to a large degree mostly in the shooter's mind.
 
Pacecil,
Do you own or have you ever owned, or shot, a top flite rimfire BR rifle in competition? I gotta wonder from some of the stuff you post. I think the intent of this thread was for shooters to post and their experiences. If you could do that, we might learn something. Anyway, it's a nice thought.
 
pacecil said:
This IS interesting. But so far that's all it is - interesting. Until someone can put some numbers with their observations, then it just a bunch of "thoughts". The statement that shooters side by side saw some different wind effect probably is true. But how much effect did they see? And what was the wind velocity while this took place? And was there any difference in bullet velocity, or yawing? YOU MUST PUT NUMBERS ON THESE THINGS AND PROBABLY A LOT OF OTHER THINGS BEFORE IT HAS ANY MEANING.

It's well known what factors affect a bullet's response to the wind and once you determine how these factors vary in the bullets flight then you can predict how it will react to the wind. Once you know how a bullet flies from a particular barrel you can predict how that bullet will be affected by the wind. If you run through calculations for this I think you will find there should be very little difference in wind effect on bullets out of good rimfire barrels. In other words; this is not an effect that is going to be easy to detect, much less measure. It's pretty much like the "tuner effect"; very small, very hard to measure, and to a large degree mostly in the shooter's mind.
Click to expand...

Hey Harry, get this guy's phone number, he might show you on the calculator how to shoot better in the wind.:D:D
 
pacecil said:
This IS interesting. But so far that's all it is - interesting. Until someone can put some numbers with their observations, then it just a bunch of "thoughts". The statement that shooters side by side saw some different wind effect probably is true. But how much effect did they see? And what was the wind velocity while this took place? And was there any difference in bullet velocity, or yawing? YOU MUST PUT NUMBERS ON THESE THINGS AND PROBABLY A LOT OF OTHER THINGS BEFORE IT HAS ANY MEANING.

It's well known what factors affect a bullet's response to the wind and once you determine how these factors vary in the bullets flight then you can predict how it will react to the wind. Once you know how a bullet flies from a particular barrel you can predict how that bullet will be affected by the wind. If you run through calculations for this I think you will find there should be very little difference in wind effect on bullets out of good rimfire barrels. In other words; this is not an effect that is going to be easy to detect, much less measure. It's pretty much like the "tuner effect"; very small, very hard to measure, and to a large degree mostly in the shooter's mind.
Click to expand...

I'm in the process or working out how I might use two chronographs to do just that. If someone has already gone down this path and it is not measurable, please stop me. Any input is welcome. Here are my thoughts:
1) Compare two chronographs measuring any differences in their calibration.
2) Run the test at 100 yards to increase the variation
3) Run identical test cases using different rifles, ammo, tuners, wax, etc. for windy and calm conditions
4) Perform a statistical evaluation of the numbers to see what factors caused the greatest velocity loss (increased drag)
5) Compare the velocity loss to observed wind drift results, taking the 12/6 and 3/9 o'clock wind vector components into account.

Does anyone know how much chronograph accuracy is improved by extending the boom length?

Pacecil,
Thoughts?

Sincerely,
Mark
 
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Jerry..

You Know That One.. My Opinion Is That The Action Is Not Very Important At All.. As Long As You Have Good Ignition And The Headspace Is Close .. The Barrel Is The Driving Force When It Comes To Wind Deflection... As Wilbur Stated You Can Have Two Rifles Side By Side And One Will Be More Wind Sensitive Than The Other.. When You Have A Good Shooting Rifle That The Wind Does Not Effect As Much Then You Will Have A Gun That Is More Forgiving.. What I Mean By This Is That You Can Get Away With More Mistakes With Less Drift.. Or With A Barrel That Is Not As Forgiving You Will Be Worn Out After Shooting A Target If You Can Keep Your Consentration... A Round Bullet Will Shoot Better Than A Distorted One!! Its Like Glynn Said... :):):) Harry..
 
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