7.62 NATO Spec prints.

M

moemag

Guest
Howdy folks.
I have a rather serious problem on my hands. I know we can argue back and fourth about 7.62 NATO (7.62x51) and .308 being the same round… but just about everyone can agree that the CHAMBER itself is in fact different. However, aside from hearsay I cannot find a 7.62 NATO chamber print. I have the SAAMI prints for a .308 Winchester, we all know about the M14 headspace, field, go no go, and how they are longer than .308 win. That’s great. But I want real honest to goodness prints of a 7.62 NATO chamber.

The best that I can figure is a NATO document called STANAG 2310

“NATO STANAG No 2310 (Edition No 3)
(AMENDMENT No 1) 15 DECEMBER 1978
SMALL ARMS AMMUNITION (7.62 mm)
This Agreement standardizes the design of 7.62 mm small arms ammunition to ensure
functional interchangeability of the ammunition when used operationally. The
ratifying countries will not depart from the provisions of this Agreement without
prior reference to the Military Agency for Standardization, and their Armed Forces
have agreed to adopt:
a. a standard NATO 7.62 mm round
b. a standard NATO proof weapon chamber and barrel.”
Click to expand...
http://www.dstan.mod.uk/data/13/033/00000300.pdf

This sounds like the controlling document that might have prints, (aslo unavalible as far as I can tell) but I am not sure… anyone have some insight and hopefully links?
 
That I have barrels that should be 7.62 NATO spec... but I'm not sure what that is... I need to be SURE. A chamber gauge isnt good enough in my situation. I need 7.62 NATO Chamber prints with tolerances for the entire chamber, not just the headspace, that I cannot seem to get a hold of/find.

Im actually in a little bit of disbelief that this is not readily avalible.
 
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moe

There are sites that have most of the documents but all of them require membership and payment for use. The documents are available for free from Govt sources but it costs $$$ and time to search for them and download.

I'm surprised also that basic ones, such as cartridge and chamber prints are not readily available.

I'll ask a couple of my collector friends if they know where they might be obtained.

Ray
 
so where did the bbl's ( chambers?) come from ?
where did they get thier reamers ?
call the reamer maker and ask whats up...what are thier specs, and where did they come from ?

sorta dont understand the issue....palma rifles ?

mike in co
 
I just inherited the problem. My customers expect 7.62 NATO chambers. As far as I can tell they are being made by running .308 reamers a little deeper. Now… maybe this is appropriate, but I don’t know. Was hoping I could get a hold of a print before confronting the manufacturer. Didn't think it would be as difficult as it is.
Just trying to get ahead of the game.
 
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That falls under contacting our manufacturer. Probably going to happen monday.

Just want prints or at least something official that says "yeah just ream a .308 .013" deeper" I really didn't think it was this hard to find. been searching all day. :eek:
 
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I recently

chambered a 7.62 Ball round in my 788 Rem and fired it. I don't believe a round that needed to go into a longer chamber would have allowed me to close the bolt.

I think the origional 7.62 may have been shorter than what is currently the standard. I think I remember a friend haveing one he made up to shoot in Score Benchrest.
 
peter,
its the chamber that is larger in nato. on the big end of the spec.

the object is more functionallity with more ammo makers......big tolerances with the ammo makers means a bigger chamber to accept it all.

mike in co
 
Try these links:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.62x51mm_NATO

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STANAG

Looks like STANAG 2310 is the document you're looking for. Here are some sources:
http://aero-defense.ihs.com/document/abstract/IZBZCAAAAAAAAAAA

http://assist.daps.dla.mil/quicksearch/basic_profile.cfm?ident_number=97727

http://docstoc.asterpix.com/cy/2429381/?q=STANAG+2310

Looks like 7.62 cartridge dimensions are reproduced on page 10 of this slide presentation: http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2007smallarms/5_9_07/Geddes_1120am.pdf

Some other links:
http://www.saami.org/Publications/

http://www.poliisi.fi/intermin/images.nsf/files/AE55118F4B9B6506C2256FBE0032C6DE/$file/TABIcal.pdf

http://www.thegunzone.com/30cal.html

http://www.google.com/search?q="7.62"+chamber+drawings&hl=en&sa=2

Disclaimer: I'm not implying personal familiarity or endorsement of any of these resources.

David Merrill
 
moe

The DTIC documents are the ones I have used the most. Of course, they don't contain everything about everything. The drawing in the one David referenced may or may not be detailed enough for you.

Be warned. I have opened some of those links in the past and have had my PC lock up tighter than a drum. On or two of them had viruses. So, make sure you have a good protection program running and/or are wearing a condom when you start searching.

Good Luck

Ray
 
The M14-M1 Garand Shop Manual by Jerry Kuhnhausen seems like it might have what I am looking for.

Anyone have a copy and be able to tell me if its what I am looking for? I have an M1A so I might just get it just because.
 
Hmmm

In the Wikipedia comments, the important statement is 'safely interchangeable'.

I see surplus military cases all over the ground at Tomball, I am sure most were shot in what we call a "308 Winchester".

The M1-A and similiar Military Replicas. Do they have a "308 Win" chamber or a "7.62X51 Nato" chamber??.........jackie
 
My M1A is stamped "NM 308 SS"

But my m1A isnt the issue.
 
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My point was

mike in co said:
peter,
its the chamber that is larger in nato. on the big end of the spec.

the object is more functionallity with more ammo makers......big tolerances with the ammo makers means a bigger chamber to accept it all.

mike in co
Click to expand...

if a 308 winchester chamber digests "Factory" 308 ammo the bolt would not come close to closing on a round .013 longer. If the 308 chamber was .013 longer than factory ammo the rifle most likely would not fire or extract the unfired case. This ain't exctly rocket sciece. Try fireing some cases that have been bumped .013 short and see what happens to the web of the cases if you can get them to go off.
 
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for the record, armalite's 308 rifle has a nato chamber and they reccommend shooting 852 mil ammo, or black hills 308 win moly ammo.

mike in co
 
M852 was a National Match cartridge and not a NATO round. It hasn't been manufactured for 15 years.

Ray
 
Pete Wass said:
if a 308 winchester chamber digests "Factory" 308 ammo the bolt would not come close to closing on a round .013 longer. If the 308 chamber was .013 longer than factory ammo the rifle most likely would not fire or extract the unfired case. This ain't exctly rocket sciece. Try fireing some cases that have been bumped .013 short and see what happens to the web of the cases if you can get them to go off.
Click to expand...


it is the chamber that is longer in a nato chamber....there is no one claiming the ammo will be longer......it may be......
and i dont think .013 will prevent a firing pin from a solid hit as the pin has .062 exposure.

bottom line my ar10t with a nato chamber has no failures to feed, no failures to fire with match thru nato ammo...so far..its only 10 yrs old.

ammo makers try to build ammo that fits rifles, not the max spec.

so inspite all the numbers on paper, the reality is that ammo makers understand and dont go there......

go look at the saami spec for 30'06...4thou interference fit!....does any one have issues ??...no...cause again the ammo makers understand and dont go there......common sense of the math of a paper document.

make sense ??

mike in co
 
mike in co said:
it is the chamber that is longer in a nato chamber....there is no one claiming the ammo will be longer......it may be......
and i dont think .013 will prevent a firing pin from a solid hit as the pin has .062 exposure.
Click to expand...

.......... this is the difference between guessing and testing. :)

If you take the time to try it you'll see that the .308 round will begin misfiring at about .006-.008 clearance. Or, in the vernacular, .006-.008 headspace. :D

al
 
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