6PPC question

W

webphut

Member
I am not new to turning necks and reloading for the 6PPC. I have always just loaded to what is in bullet manufacturers reload data books. Wanting to pursue more accuracy, I have been reading more and more about the bench rest shooters loading with H322, N133, and benchmark powder to what are loads that I am not able find in load data books, a lot of talk in clicks of powder and not much talk of grains of powder. Is there a safe path to follow when experimenting with loads that are not in the books? Maybe I am misunderstanding or am not up to date on the acronyms used within the bench rest crowd. I am not sure as to what to ask and when to ask, so I guess i will just satart with something. How do the benchrest shooters know when they are reaching a dangerous point in the amount of powder they are loading in the cases? Example: The sierra load data book lists their 70 grain BTHP calls for 24.4 grains and 25.4 grains of N133, but I feel as if the bench rest shooters are shooting hotter loads than these listed. My rifle is a Sako AI or L461 6PPC with an aftermarket heavy tight neck barrel with a neck diameter of .262".
The C.O.L. to ogive is 1.702" using the Sierra 70 grain hpbt. I am still just scratching the surface on where my lands are in relation to my bullet, how many .000" off the lands my bullets are, but I am still not sure how to tell where this plays in my group size. Does ".000" off the lands" close group size form .375" to .250" or is it going to shrink it .365". So while I am still just getting the feel for things, I would like to have a better understanding on how far to go and when to say no as far as loading with loads not listed in the load data books.
 
webphut,

I own or have owned or have shooting friends that own most of the factory "PPC's" including all the Rugers, a couple Coopers and a couple Sakos including the A1 from the 80's. My A1 shot circles around all the others, so much so that it was banned from "Factory Rifle Competition" in most clubs I know of.

BUT......

They are NOT PPC's as discussed here on this site. All of the factory rifles except for some rare Coopers are chambered for something called the "PPC USA". Nor are they designed to take the insane pressures talked about here on this site. And even those Coopers ARE NOT BR Rifles.

Without typing an entire volume here let me just suggest that you NEED a chronograph.... best hunnerd dollars you'll ever spend.....shoot 65-70gr bullets at right around 3250fps and play with seating depth, neck tension etc and enjoy the everlivin' tar out of your rifle. Don't believe anything you read or hear about "pressure spikes when you approach the lands" and also don't believe anything that tries to predict where or when or how or why your gun will shoot. JUST DO IT :) and have fun. It WILL BE safe.

3000-3250fps=SAFE

Take LOTS of notes.

Don't lie to yourself.

When you're ready to try the stuff talked about here, acquire a new or used Bench Rest Rifle in 6PPC. It WILL NOT have any factory action except possible Remington 700. Period. Don't even consider any other options as they're a waste of money and possibly dangerous. When you're looking at one, post here on BRC (NOWHERE ELSE) and folks will give you an honest appraisal. Or buy from here on this site, the classifieds......still, ask others to look at it. Or buy from Shooter's Corner, the proprietor Bob White is one of the Lastest and Bestest of the Good Guys, his word is Gold.

Best of all, find a match. Go SEE the guns, probably SHOOT the guns.... heck, post where you're located and someone will meet you at a range to let you shoot. When I was in your shoes I met a fellow name Del Bishop (R.I.P. you sweet man) and he taught me more in just a few days than 20yrs shooting and a 2yr stint in Gunsmithing School.

And remember, "There IS Only One Dumb Question"

The one you didn't ask :)
 
Ok, thank you. So that’s my next item to buy then. I will start from where Sierra says to with the powders and I guess start adding a grain until I get close to the FPS. Great! I appreciate the information.

There are so many things going on that need to be addressed, I just was not sure where to go next. I was worried I would be doing the egg or chicken dance and not know if The tail was wagging me or I was wagging the tail. Anyways, thank you.
 
Ohhh, and another thing. Nosler makes a 55gr 6mm Ballistic Tip...... same BC as the 55gr .22 NBT.... This bullet, in your gun will EAT 22-250's for lunch. Now's ya' got's your chronograph ya' run those 55's up to 3650 and BOOOYaaahhhhhh! ! !


jus' sayin',


Have fun


safely


:)
 
Where are you located? I am new to short range BR and the 6PPC and agree with the suggestion of Bob White. I am in his shop on a regular basis and he has been a real help. Getting a mentor is also a good way to go and I am lucky enough to have one that helps me regularly.

Bob
 
I am in Cypress, TX. I shoot at American Shooting Center in Katy and sometimes at Hot Wells in Cypress. ASC has the 100, 200, 300, 600 and I believe on special request, not 100% on this yet, but from word of mouth have heard they have 900 or 1000 yard too. But I am just interested in the 100 and 300 yard currently. Like I said earlier, I am still just figuring things out with the 6PPC. I have loaded ammunition since I was 10 years old, but I have always loaded what was documented in bullet manufacturers books, never used a chronograph and never used my gut feeling as a judgement on how much I could push powder loads. I read a little about primers and what happens to them at too high of a pressure, but I at this point am more worried about the receiver blowing up in my face and off to the the ER I go. I am only able to get to the range on Fridays as I am a full time father and husband and this leaves me only a very tight window as far as trigger time. I am wondering if I should get setup to load at the bench during my shoot time or just keep loading at home and then shooting at the range. I have always loaded at home and then shot at the range, but the books I been reading make me think I should be loading at the bench and only taking a few pieces of brass.

I have shot so so groups with H322 and I have yet to try benchmark. I just made up some loads using n133, but just what is in the book. To shoot at the fps I am getting recommendations for, I think I will need to load at the bench rather than go back and fourth.
 
You are close...

To Tomball Tx. They are a private club and have bench rest matches every month. The name of the club is the Tomball Gun Club and the guys there will love to have a new shooter like you attend. Heck, one of them may even have a used PPC to sell. If they do, it will be a great rifle from an owner who just wants to try something new.

Good luck...virg.
 
I am also a old reloader and a newer 6PPC shooter. I bought a used 6PPC benchrest rifle about a year ago, an have been learning ever since.
Yes, the loads being used are not in the loading manuals, they are much hotter. I would only use them in a action in which you have great confidence.

I suggest you purchase the Tony Boyer book, it is all about the 6PPC. He is the best Benchrest shooter ever, and has detailed all the steps he uses to achieve his status as the top man in the benchrest Hall of Fame. This book tells what 6PPC loads he uses, how to prepare the cases ,etc, and will be invaluable to you.

Here is a link to purchase the book.

www.bulletcentral.com/product/the-book-of-rifle-accuracy-by-tony-boyer/

DO NOT hesitate to buy this because of the price, it is in the price range of a box or two of bullets, and it will save you many times it's value in your wasted ammunition.

As to finding the lands, there are several methods. You can measure the base to ogive length with a comparator. You can use a Hornady Lock n Load length gage, or a method which I prefer, the Wheeler Method.

https://youtu.be/TWmIwPwLyyg

I always start my load development just touching the lands. After you get a powder charge that shoots well, you can adjust into the lands (or out of the lands) to refine your groups. Nobody can tell you which way to go, or how much. Tony Boyer discusses this in his book(he is always into the lands).

For your info, I have a Borden BR action, with a 6PPC Bartlien barrel, and I am shooting 29.2 gr of V133 with a 68 gr Bart's Ultra (flat base) at about 3350 fps out of a 21" barrel. I have shot as high as 30.2 grains, but that is up into the neck, and is a compressed load, and will stretch your primer pockets. I don't think I can put enough N133 into a 6PPC case to hurt MY action, I know that the Sako is a premium action, BUT I am not familiar enough with it's size and sturdiness to advise you as to it's limit.
As alinwa stated above, he does not believe the Sako will handle these loads.

A side note. While the 6PPC is a great cartridge, it does involve fire forming, neck turning etc. If you are not shooting bench rest, a 6BR with a no turn neck will shoot almost as good, with lower pressures, and no hassles.
 
I am just now reading boyers book and also ratigans book too. I do not have the lifestyle to do what these two have done with the talant, but for a hobby, I am willing to make the most out of my rifle. I inherited the rifle, so I'm just figuring out what I have, where I am at and now I have a few more pieces of the puzzle to work on adding to my trigger time with the rifle. I have a USA, the factory 6PPC that Sako made, so I may just end up hanging this rifle up for my daughter's to fight over some day and shoot the USA 6PPC, being I can just buy Norma brass load and shoot it. But for now, I figured the tight neck 6PPC deserved to be shot.
 
Hello, I am a benchrest shooter from Europe, actually from Portugal.
After a few years shooting BR50 rimfire, I decided to order a 6mm PPC rifle to start short range BR central fire. In Portugal only 100m, 200m and 300m BR competitions actually take place, as well as 100m with open iron sights and classic military rifles.
I ordered a .262 chambered rifle (1:14 twist rate) from the Italian gunsmith Varide Cicognani, read lots of books, including evidently Boyle’s book, and started all the hassle task of preparing the ammo from the Lapua .220 Russian new brass.
In addition to the usual difficulties of a country where guns are very restricted and highly regulated, causing a very short number of sport shooters, the reloading equipment is difficult to obtain locally and good powders almost impossible.
In the local gun shops currently we were able to buy some of the French Nobel “Vectan” powders and the Spanish MAXAM only. Acquisition of powders and primers is also restricted requiring a special authorization from the Police department. Bullets and brass are of free acquisition and usually we order them from abroad.
So I was forced to try with the locally available components and to take the best out of them!
Careful case preparation with all the lesson learned from Boyle and reloading with extreme attention to detail, may give good results even without the most famous powders, like Vihtavuori N133...
Attention to neck turning – I turn to 0.008, - good Wilson dies with adequate bushing – I use .257 bushing – and around 28 gr charge of Vectan SP10 or Tubal 3000 (according to weather conditions) – pushing 64 gr Berger column bullets, were the receipt for about 3200 fps and not more than about 45000 psi chamber pressure ( I run the calculations with QuickLoad v3.9).
This was enough to win the Portuguese National Championship on 2017!
So my message is: be careful with the case preparation – the 6mmPPC .262 case does not commercially exist and you have to “make” it from .220 Russian Lapua brass – take the best components you can, and tune your ammo with patience. You may be assured that this “via sacra” pays well in good results! And if you are concerned with chamber pressure and do not trust the available reloading tables, try QuickLOAD software that helps a lot on the theoretical basis preparation for new reloading experiences.
Sorry for this long post but I do not usually see posts from European shooters and would like to just show that we also share the same issues you have in this type of sophisticate game, although with more restrictions due to the heavily regulated gun laws!
All the best!
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Butch Lambert said:
Glad to welcome you to the forum!
Click to expand...

Many thanks Butch!
I'm trying to learn more on this precision shooting game!
Just purchased a new 6mm Norma BR, with 1:8 twist rate for the 300m distance where I feel the 6PPC is not so able due to the slow twist and therefore lighter bullets. The Lapua factory ammo with the 105 gr scenar bullets shoot well at 300m ( in my initial tests about one MOA) but I believe hand loading will improve it!
This rifle is a Kelbly's with McMillan stock, finished and assembled in Germany under the brand "SMH PRECISION" by Henke:

https://henke-online.de/de/3122/waf...ecision-long-range-6mm-norma-br-smhalr6br.htm

So I believe the ideal combination is the 6PPC for 100/200m and the 6mm Norma BR for 300m and longer distances.

What do you think?
 
afmelo said:
Many thanks Butch!
I'm trying to learn more on this precision shooting game!
Just purchased a new 6mm Norma BR, with 1:8 twist rate for the 300m distance where I feel the 6PPC is not so able due to the slow twist and therefore lighter bullets. The Lapua factory ammo with the 105 gr scenar bullets shoot well at 300m ( in my initial tests about one MOA) but I believe hand loading will improve it!
This rifle is a Kelbly's with McMillan stock, finished and assembled in Germany under the brand "SMH PRECISION" by Henke:

https://henke-online.de/de/3122/waf...ecision-long-range-6mm-norma-br-smhalr6br.htm

So I believe the ideal combination is the 6PPC for 100/200m and the 6mm Norma BR for 300m and longer distances.

What do you think?
Click to expand...

I believe you have top quality components assembled by a top notch gunshop. I wish you further success.
 
afmelo said:
Many thanks Butch!
I'm trying to learn more on this precision shooting game!
Just purchased a new 6mm Norma BR, with 1:8 twist rate for the 300m distance where I feel the 6PPC is not so able due to the slow twist and therefore lighter bullets. The Lapua factory ammo with the 105 gr scenar bullets shoot well at 300m ( in my initial tests about one MOA) but I believe hand loading will improve it!
This rifle is a Kelbly's with McMillan stock, finished and assembled in Germany under the brand "SMH PRECISION" by Henke:

https://henke-online.de/de/3122/waf...ecision-long-range-6mm-norma-br-smhalr6br.htm

So I believe the ideal combination is the 6PPC for 100/200m and the 6mm Norma BR for 300m and longer distances.

What do you think?
Click to expand...

Since Walker County Benchrest Range was opened several years ago, I have been shooting quite a bit of 300.

I disagree with your premis. 300 is still where a shooter can get a good read on flags. That means the best agging Rifle will give you the best results. Not much will out Agg 6PPC.

You simply cannot make a 1-8 twist high BC setup Agg well enough to take advantage of the higher BC of the longer and heavier bullet.

Now, if you are planning on shooting some 600, then it's a different story. You will give up some to a good 6PPC at 300, but out past that, a good shooting BR with high BC bullets will take over.
 
jackie schmidt said:
Since Walker County Benchrest Range was opened several years ago, I have been shooting quite a bit of 300.

I disagree with your premis. 300 is still where a shooter can get a good read on flags. That means the best agging Rifle will give you the best results. Not much will out Agg 6PPC.

You simply cannot make a 1-8 twist high BC setup Agg well enough to take advantage of the higher BC of the longer and heavier bullet.

Now, if you are planning on shooting some 600, then it's a different story. You will give up some to a good 6PPC at 300, but out past that, a good shooting BR with high BC bullets will take over.
Click to expand...

Many thanks for your reply - I understand what you say and in fact the plan is to shoot 600m when possible...

But the fact is that in strong windy conditions my 6PPC with the light 64 gr bullets needs a lot of effort to win against the 6BR's with the 105 gr bullet Lapua factory ammo. I believe that in such conditions the 105's will perform even much better with the right hand load. Tests will be made in the next couple of months.
 
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