6.5x47 vs 6.5x284 for 1000 yd benchrest
- Thread starter bryan
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J
Jay Idaho
Guest
6-6.5 X 47 or 6.5-.284
Both have had a lot of success at 1k. 6.5X47 has not had enough use to be a proven chambering, yet.
Opinions of one,
Both have had a lot of success at 1k. 6.5X47 has not had enough use to be a proven chambering, yet.
Opinions of one,
I don't shoot either, and the best I can find implies that the 6.5x47L holds 47grH2O capacity.
This seems mighty underpowered compared to others on that line.
The 260 holds 55gr
The 6.5-284 holds 66gr
These loaded to potential will leave the 6.5x47L in the dust. Just as these will often be left in the dust by 30cals. -By the numbers...
IMO
If the weight limits were 15lbs, or 12lbs, the 26 and 24cals would dominate respectively. At 17lbs, the 30cals win with higher percentages.
So why give up percentages before getting to the line?
This seems mighty underpowered compared to others on that line.
The 260 holds 55gr
The 6.5-284 holds 66gr
These loaded to potential will leave the 6.5x47L in the dust. Just as these will often be left in the dust by 30cals. -By the numbers...
IMO
If the weight limits were 15lbs, or 12lbs, the 26 and 24cals would dominate respectively. At 17lbs, the 30cals win with higher percentages.
So why give up percentages before getting to the line?
H
H Brewer Jr
Guest
6.5x47 lapua
check out wv1000yd.com We have several shooters shooting this cal,
with four guys in the top 20 in the IBS points and two world records
this round will hold its own with the big boomer,plus the barrel life is
more than twice that of the 6.5x284,try one they shoot well.
check out wv1000yd.com We have several shooters shooting this cal,
with four guys in the top 20 in the IBS points and two world records
this round will hold its own with the big boomer,plus the barrel life is
more than twice that of the 6.5x284,try one they shoot well.
J
jb1000br
Guest
Hey Bryan,
You CAN get 2900fps+ with a 140gn bullet in the 6.5x47...with R17. When I was shooting a 6.5-284 I was only cruising at 2925 with a 140 class bullet.
If it means anything to you, my next rifle for 1000 Yard Benchrest WILL be a 6.5x47...
Hey, if it turns out you hate the 6.5x47, you can always open it up to a 6.5-284
YMMV,
JB
You CAN get 2900fps+ with a 140gn bullet in the 6.5x47...with R17. When I was shooting a 6.5-284 I was only cruising at 2925 with a 140 class bullet.
If it means anything to you, my next rifle for 1000 Yard Benchrest WILL be a 6.5x47...
Hey, if it turns out you hate the 6.5x47, you can always open it up to a 6.5-284
YMMV,
JB
The 6.5X47L WILL rule the world.............
The only reason it already doesn't is because it's too young. You can't even BUY a factory rifle for it in America, nor factory ammo!
In a couple short years the case has proven it's worth many time over.
In My Opinion
(HAS ta' be only an opinion because the case is in it's infancy. I bought 500rds of the first shipment sight unseen and haven't regretted it. It does everything it should. For competition it beats the 6.5X.284 six ways from Sunday.)
al
The only reason it already doesn't is because it's too young. You can't even BUY a factory rifle for it in America, nor factory ammo!
In a couple short years the case has proven it's worth many time over.
In My Opinion
(HAS ta' be only an opinion because the case is in it's infancy. I bought 500rds of the first shipment sight unseen and haven't regretted it. It does everything it should. For competition it beats the 6.5X.284 six ways from Sunday.)
al
From left field -- or maybe right field? -- I get 3,100+ with a 150-grain Clinch River with the 6.5/06 AI. ES (not SD) about 7 fps. I was getting about that from the CR 140-grain FB, with which I posted the small group of the year at Hawks Ridge in 2005. But the 140 FB were problematical in terms of bullet blow-up; probably a bad lot of jackets. May be worth revisiting now that J4 has made some changes.
Anyway, the point being that there is more than one satisfactory 6.5 chambering.
Anyway, the point being that there is more than one satisfactory 6.5 chambering.
I can't imagine a 6.5-284 loaded down to 2925fps shooting well either. Might as well go with a mini cartridge at better pressures for that..
It matters not to me, but I'm thinking the purpose for the 6.5x47L/6.5Creedmore is to fit AR platforms in various medium range competitions.
I see these merely as a short action adjustments over the Grendel, and no more of 1kyd cartridges than a 30br.
So what is the basis for it's use at 1Kyds?
You can't just claim that it's basis -is that it's used.. That's not a basis, because so is everything else.
What would give it an edge at the line over any other?
It matters not to me, but I'm thinking the purpose for the 6.5x47L/6.5Creedmore is to fit AR platforms in various medium range competitions.
I see these merely as a short action adjustments over the Grendel, and no more of 1kyd cartridges than a 30br.
So what is the basis for it's use at 1Kyds?
You can't just claim that it's basis -is that it's used.. That's not a basis, because so is everything else.
What would give it an edge at the line over any other?
The ability to run HOT like a PPC or BR which IMO is conducive to better agg'ing capability.
Small case, small primer and small flashhole coupled with tough, consistent Lapua brass gives it an edge over other offerings. Even those which use Lapua brass.
opinionsby
al
Alinwa
We held the NBRSA 600 and 1,000 Yard Nationals both in Sacramento this year and only one or two shooters did well with either cartridge.From looking strictly at the match reports I am not seeing what you are saying.Right now if you want to shoot a small case the 6BR or 6Dasher are the cartridges to beat.
I wouldn't worry too much about factory rifles or factory ammo as they aren't winning many matches either.
Waterboy
And when the 6BR and "DAsher" were introduced to the 600-1000yd world the same skepticism occurred. It will take years for acceptance.
and....... I'VE HAD THIS ARGUMENT BEFORE
right here on BRC........ long before there was a 6MMBR.com there was just a few folks crying in the wilderness while everybody else laughed. Read the one and only heavy-duty book devoted to the subject, PS publication "Precision Shooting at 1000yds" Dave Brennan's definitive tome on "what works" for 1000yd shooting. Things change.... things get better. The absolute top-of-the-line setups in Brennan's book aren't even competitive by today's standards.
I was there when the 6BR achieved consistent 1/4" agg's......
I was there when the talk was all about "groups converging with distance" and "don't worry about hundred yard groups" and "the bullets haven't gone to sleep yet" and on and on and on........pure BS. As the BR's and DAshers have proven. I was shouting this new 6.5X47 case to the skies before it even existed..... For 6mm and 30cal usage.... I BEGGED Kaltron-Pettibone to sell me a lot of .308 brass with un-drilled flashholes, or make a run of small primer pocket brass or something. I fervently followed Tubb's abortive attempts at fixing the problem. I developed a bastardized .308 HBR round, a complete waste of time except that I now use a brand new 15yr-old Krieger with a homemade chamber to fireform for new 30X47L case....... My case from 15 yrs ago is .006 off from the 6.5X47L case.... I had to shorten it a little. And now Lapua has given us .308 cases too....
awesome
Regarding your reference to factory cartridges/rifle winning...... I have no idea what your point is here
The difference between the sheep and the wolves is that the sheep only learn from "what's winning' without understanding why.
Ruts are boring
and hard to see out of
a BR or a DAsher offers no advantage over the 47L case.
al
Hence the popularity of the 6-6.5x47L,, it matches the Dasher(an actual 1kyd cartridge). But we've already got the dasher..
If you push a mouse to nearly the speed of a cat, the cat still eats.
Extreme precision in grouping matters less at 1kyd.
You only need to shoot 1/2moa consistently to win, and I haven't seen it done consistently at 1kyd. Not even from shooters who are regular winners(like the Kings).
The devil's in the wind. So unless you're a seriously good wind shooter, you need the help of EXTERNAL ballistics to reduce wind drift error.
Small primers won't help alot here unless it gives your bullet 1/4moa less drift to guess than your competition.
IMO, the fellow that competes so well with a mighty mouse in the wind, should consider how well he'd do with a 1/2moa cartridge delivering better ballistics. This has so far led 30cals to more wins overall, because there is typically -some wind.
Sure, there are anomalies. Calm days. Anyone on the line could outshoot everyone on a given day.. Yeah, Yeah..
But still you shoot heaviest per cal bullets, regardless of cartridge. You don't use light flat base bullets that would be more accurate at any range (if not for the devil). So why resist external ballistics in cartridge selection per cal?
G
Greg Culpepper
Guest
Mike,
You make some good points.
Accuracy still counts, witness the frequent success of flat base Bibbs at 1K in spite of their lower BC. There are competing issues that allow multiple successful strategies at 1K. All things being equal, more BC is better. But all things ARE NOT equal. Since you mention cats, at 1K there are a lot of ways to skin them.
Greg
You make some good points.
Accuracy still counts, witness the frequent success of flat base Bibbs at 1K in spite of their lower BC. There are competing issues that allow multiple successful strategies at 1K. All things being equal, more BC is better. But all things ARE NOT equal. Since you mention cats, at 1K there are a lot of ways to skin them.
Greg
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Alinwa
I don't think anything you thought or talked about helped get the 6BR or 6Dasher's into the winners circle.It takes a shooter switching from a 270 to a 6BR on average 3.207 minutes to realise this gun shoots and it shoots very well.
I think alot of guys jumped on the new 6.5X47 case when it first came out and for the number of guns built using nothing but quality components it has yet to dominate at 1,000 yards out west.It may be winning on the eastcoast as I haven't followed there matches lately.
Screaming shouting and waving your arms doesn't equate to wins were I shoot results on the target is what wins down here.
If you want to be competitive ask Lou Murdica if you can borrow his wife Connies 6BR.
Waterboy
I don't think anything you thought or talked about helped get the 6BR or 6Dasher's into the winners circle.It takes a shooter switching from a 270 to a 6BR on average 3.207 minutes to realise this gun shoots and it shoots very well.
I think alot of guys jumped on the new 6.5X47 case when it first came out and for the number of guns built using nothing but quality components it has yet to dominate at 1,000 yards out west.It may be winning on the eastcoast as I haven't followed there matches lately.
Screaming shouting and waving your arms doesn't equate to wins were I shoot results on the target is what wins down here.
If you want to be competitive ask Lou Murdica if you can borrow his wife Connies 6BR.
Waterboy
As far as no one averaging 1/2 moa at 1 K....I did in Pella, and got my ass kicked.
I averaged just under 6" for 8 matches at Harris in some brutal weather.....And got my ass kicked...again.
And, I didn't get beat by freak groups....these guys avaraged smaller for the season than me!!!
AND.....I shot a big 30 and most of the guys that beat me were shooting "smaller" 6mms..... Dashers and BRXs.....So much for "balistic advantage"!!!
But, in my defence, they are world class shooters and I am not.
I am just sayin......there is going to be some guys who will latch on to the 6.5-47, figure the thing out, and kick ass with them.
Tod
I averaged just under 6" for 8 matches at Harris in some brutal weather.....And got my ass kicked...again.
And, I didn't get beat by freak groups....these guys avaraged smaller for the season than me!!!
AND.....I shot a big 30 and most of the guys that beat me were shooting "smaller" 6mms..... Dashers and BRXs.....So much for "balistic advantage"!!!
But, in my defence, they are world class shooters and I am not.
I am just sayin......there is going to be some guys who will latch on to the 6.5-47, figure the thing out, and kick ass with them.
Tod
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Greg when I say 1/2moa, it's 1/2 moa at range(not point blank). It's not 1/2moa of accuracy either, but consistency(grouping).
I believe anyone who could do this consistently in 1Kyd competition, would do very well. That don't mean 'often', or at 100yds, or one tournament, during warm-ups, practicing, or 3-outa-4 relays. And it doesn't mean that they wouldn't be beaten by someone shooting better. Has anyone here laid down 1/2moa groups in 1Kyd competition -consistently?
Also if you normalize cartridges(as someone here actually took the time to do), you will recognize the 30cals as dominent in 1kyd competition. This simply cannot be denied as it is not a close running with the other cals.
If you normalize shooter accomplishments, I think you would see consistent 1/2moa at 1kyd as a lofty goal.
I wouldn't argue the 6Dasher can hold it's own in good conditions, or the right hands. It seems to me the right balance in 24cal.
Such a balance in 26cal can be had with an improved 260.
This would provide less drift, with the same potentials (like barrel life).
If your error is 5% per mph of wind, then applying this to 20" of drift -vs- 15" has got to be a consideration. Same holds true of drop error.
I believe anyone who could do this consistently in 1Kyd competition, would do very well. That don't mean 'often', or at 100yds, or one tournament, during warm-ups, practicing, or 3-outa-4 relays. And it doesn't mean that they wouldn't be beaten by someone shooting better. Has anyone here laid down 1/2moa groups in 1Kyd competition -consistently?
Also if you normalize cartridges(as someone here actually took the time to do), you will recognize the 30cals as dominent in 1kyd competition. This simply cannot be denied as it is not a close running with the other cals.
If you normalize shooter accomplishments, I think you would see consistent 1/2moa at 1kyd as a lofty goal.
I wouldn't argue the 6Dasher can hold it's own in good conditions, or the right hands. It seems to me the right balance in 24cal.
Such a balance in 26cal can be had with an improved 260.
This would provide less drift, with the same potentials (like barrel life).
If your error is 5% per mph of wind, then applying this to 20" of drift -vs- 15" has got to be a consideration. Same holds true of drop error.
Rich De
Member
Funny..........I just looked over the match reports from the NC 1,000 yrd club during the past few shoots. Actually, the last match there were 36 shooters and only ONE 6.5 x 47L being shot. A couple of 6 - 6.5 x 47L's were represented. No wins were posted by the 6.5 or the 6's??? Definitely the .30 cal.'s posted most of the wins along with a lone 7mm.
Since the matches have moved out east from me, some 3 1/2 hours away, I have not shot any 1,000 yd. matches lately with my 6.5 x 284 super. I just however, finished up re-barreling that "super" light gun to 6mmBRX and will persue the 600 yd. game more vigorusly as Piedmont is only 1 hour away. Recent rotator cuff surgery on my right shoulder is another reason to keep recoil on the light side.
Rich De
Since the matches have moved out east from me, some 3 1/2 hours away, I have not shot any 1,000 yd. matches lately with my 6.5 x 284 super. I just however, finished up re-barreling that "super" light gun to 6mmBRX and will persue the 600 yd. game more vigorusly as Piedmont is only 1 hour away. Recent rotator cuff surgery on my right shoulder is another reason to keep recoil on the light side.
Rich De
Lynn,
Hey, as the short dude useta' say...... "different strokes for different folks" .....
You do offer weird options though.
And what would you know about the development of the 6BR??? You were off shooting shottyguns at the time..... it wasn't always the wunderkind you think of it as.
al
G
Greg Culpepper
Guest
Hi Mike,
As I better understand what you're saying our opinions seem to be converging.
5% error in wind reading doesn't produce a 33% change in result on target
And I don't think this matters so much in BR anyway where shooters seldom hold off to accommodate changing conditions. We mostly just shoot faster. It is huge in NRA long range games however where the shot cadence is very slow due to pit service requirements
More recoil typically slows shot cadence and contributes to more frequent gun handling errors. I think I'm correct that Mark King (with a 98 lb. 6 Dasher heavy gun) who was mentioned earlier frequently shoots head up without pushing his gun forward between shots. But if you have enough gun you can do the same thing with a 30 (Pendergraff and "No Fear" Bailey). But in light gun, more recoil runs slower and is exposed to more condition.
If BC were the end all we would all shoot 7mms. I might myself next year.
If we were discussing this face to face I bet we would reach a consensus quickly.
Greg
As I better understand what you're saying our opinions seem to be converging.
5% error in wind reading doesn't produce a 33% change in result on target
And I don't think this matters so much in BR anyway where shooters seldom hold off to accommodate changing conditions. We mostly just shoot faster. It is huge in NRA long range games however where the shot cadence is very slow due to pit service requirements
More recoil typically slows shot cadence and contributes to more frequent gun handling errors. I think I'm correct that Mark King (with a 98 lb. 6 Dasher heavy gun) who was mentioned earlier frequently shoots head up without pushing his gun forward between shots. But if you have enough gun you can do the same thing with a 30 (Pendergraff and "No Fear" Bailey). But in light gun, more recoil runs slower and is exposed to more condition.
If BC were the end all we would all shoot 7mms. I might myself next year.
If we were discussing this face to face I bet we would reach a consensus quickly.
Greg
Hi all, My my distant prospective on cartridge choice i would say that there are some underlying reasons why shooters choose the cartridges they do .. 1/ the choice is made because of weather patterns locally ..We have a lot of a following strong left/right fishtail breeze ,the 3000fps 6.5s will usually double my vertical dispersion every target.. 2 /Gunsmiths tend to be local too .. 3/ availablity of very good bullets ..4/ In benchrest accuracy beats wind bucking ability most of the time IMO...At my home range the 8 ins twist cartridges over the last 10 years are punished way more on the target in our weather,even the 7mms at 9 in twist are not as successfull as the rifles using the lighter pills in the 10 in twist , with this in mind it's likely that a newcomer is not going to build something that has been already discarded by the majority,therefor most of the same cartridges keep turning up.. Nearest gunsmith apart from our home grown stuff is a 1000 mile away ,and they mostly are not benchrest gunsmiths.. I use a 13.5 ins twist and at nearly every match in the country i have attended i will have the worst BC of all the competitors, but this has not stopped me being competitive..In past years i have a 10 match score average of 94.0,94 of the 100 horribile blunt bullets went inside a 7 inch circle ,the biggest windage spread of the 10 targets was 10 ins and this was done with a .520 BC.If it were ballistics alone everybody everywhere would shoot a 300Smk in 338 at 3200fps and they don't..I closing if your not building your own guns or have lots of time and money to experiment then go with the cartridge your local Long Range Benchrest Gunsmith recomends.. Starting with fact finding trips at said range to see who's winning,what cartridge it is and who's the smith is the easiest path..JR..Jeff Rogers