6.5x47 vs 6.5x284 for 1000 yd benchrest

I am pretty sure the IBS 6 match LG ag at 1K is now around 4.1 set by Al Forbs out of the Pella range....with a 6 Dasher, no less.

I am not sure weather or not the record is "official" yet, or the exact number.
 
The NW 1000 Yard club shoots in Missoula, MT, and is affiliated with the PA 1k club. All groups, 17# and Heavy are 10 shot groups, one target per match, period.
I think that 8 or 9 of the 10 PA club records are now held by the MT club shooters, smallest groups, highest scores and all aggs. Almost all (maybe all) of the records were set with 6mm Dashers and many were smithed by John King of Kila, MT.
They award NF scopes to the class winners of their Championship Match, each year, held in August. All three NF scopes went to 6 Dasher shooters, this year. I think the same was true in 2008, also.

The two top overall winners at Byers, CO, NBRSA 1k Nationals in 2008 were both 6 Dashers. The shooter that really cleaned house at Sacramento NBRSA Nationals, this year, shot Dashers in both classes.

I like 30 cal rifles, it is an American tradition, but it is hard to buck the trend when little 6's are winning about everything.

Jay, Idaho
 
IMO the telling points are the ones like Jay makes above:


"Almost all (maybe all) of the records were set with 6mm Dashers and many were smithed by John King of Kila, MT."

The thing I see is.....obviously Mr King has the bugs worked out of his DAsher system! :)

By the same token, if you have a PPC built by any of twenty real BR gunsmiths AND YOU STICK WITH THEIR SYSTEM you can win..... but start mixing and matching and years of work go out the window. A perfectly matched SYSTEM will allow for fine accuracy. And if you want to just buy a winning rifle today it's 'stremely hoovis to just call one of the pros and buy the whole gosh-darn setup. And it'll most'en likely be a .262nk 6PPC....... ((((of course I'm referring here to 100-200yd stuff. REFERENCE only lest someone leap in and howl "ooohhhh, so now you're saying the PPC can win 1000yd matches????" :rolleyes: ))))

Now, does this mean that Gene Beggs' work with bone-stock 220 Russ cases and ones popped out to 6MM is useless? Can we "look at match reports and see that Beggs is blowing smoke???"

Absolutely NOT! Gene is carving a new path, kinda' :) ..... he's applying proven techniques to his Beggs cartridges and they're shooting lights out, as they should. Gene's a careful craftsman and the potential is there.

Now, regarding Begg's RIFLE DESIGN ...... THAT is a departure from the norm! I gotta' give Geno some really big pats on the back for his daring use of unconventional methods..... but there's really no reason for Begg's cartridges not to shoot.

Just like the 6.5X47L case...... whether you leave it alone, squish it down to .22 or .243 or blow it up to something bigger, IT WILL SHOOT, because it has to. Provided it's handled correctly.

Like anything else still in design phase, there are a thousand ways to pus it all up..... The 6BR is a perfect case in point. For YEARS it had the reputation of an also-ran. For YEARS people jimmy-jacked it six ways from Sunday but very few folks realized that the KEY was (is) in fit and fireform. Make it like a PPC and it'll shoot like one. This may even mean shortening it a little, but it WILL include proper fit-and-fireform.....


So if it doesn't shoot, be it a 6BR, a DAsher or a X47L, something's wrong with the build. Not the case.

And yes, a winning 600-1000yd setup today WILL shoot dots at 100yds. Whatever it is, if it ain't shooting dots you'd better pray for wind...... and luck.:D

LOL

Now if I can just locate some of those darn new .308 cases German's raving about!

al
 
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Great bullets and gun handling

Greg mentioned gun management as a factor in selecting a chambering for benchrest. This is a significant factor for a 17 lb rifle that may often be overlooked. This fact and the fact that 6mm projectiles of great quality seem to be a bit easier to produce allows the BR & variant 6mm's to close the BC gap on the 30 cals. In good air where BC is not as great a factor the BR's will shine for sure. You can not put numbers on gun handling and great bullets but the match results in the end tell the story. I will be surprised if the 6.5X47 Lapua is ever as successful as the 6BR in 600-1000 yard benchrest.
 
Nielson Wins Inaugural Ojai 600-yard Benchrest Match
Filed under: Competition, New Product — Tags: Leonard stock, NBRSA, Nielson, Ojai, Rings — Editor @ 2 pm
On Sunday November 29th, the Ojai Valley Gun Club hosted its first-ever NBRSA-sanctioned, 600-yard Benchrest match. Ojai boasts a beautiful range in the Southern California foothills about 40 road miles from the coast. Many Pala Range regulars from the San Diego area were on hand, and some “big names” turned up for the event including Lou Murdica and 2007 NBRSA 600-yard Champion Don Nielson. In sunny but wildly changeable conditions (ranging from near-calm to 20 mph gusts), Don showed how it was done, winning the match with his 6.5×47 Lapua rifle.

Don finished first in ALL LG and HG categories except Heavy Gun score, where he placed second. In Light Gun class, Don shot a 2.207″ Agg for three, 5-shot targets (1.523″, 2.344″, 2.754″). Mind you this was in conditions where some pretty good shooters were off paper. Don said the secret was to shoot fast: “When it’s switchy, you can’t wait. I pretty much never stopped and never slowed down. Even for the 10-shot Heavy Gun Groups I think I was done in 30 seconds.” Second in Two Gun Overall was Brenda Hill. Brenda has established herself as one of California’s top F-Class and long-range shooters. At Ojai, Brenda was shooting a very accurate 6BRX rifle smithed by Leroy Johnson, jpgrifles [at] yahoo.com. John Crawford, Bruce Duncan, and Lou Murdica also all shot well in the difficult conditions.
 
Hey, AliiiiinWAaaaa! I guess I'll stand out on the outskirts and shout the praises of the 6.5x47 with you :)

That piddly little 6BR is no good at 1000 yds either huh? Could you imagine using a 6BR at 1000 and not even doing a full bench-prep on your brass...the horror! (I guess I better tell my rifle that it's wasting its time, since it is only the best shooting light gun in the history of the Williamsport Club :) )

All this hoop-blah just makes me want to build a dedicated 1000 yard 6.5x47 sooner...alas, not a fat enough wallet to take that project on at this time :( Who knows, might even build it at 13.5lbs and take it to some point-blankity-blank matches!! Could you imagine!? :D

I am confident a 6.5x47 running 140gn bullets with Reloder 17 will be a very competitive 1000 yard setup.

I remember seeing single-digit extreme spreads the first time I took my first 6.5x47 out about 3 years ago. I only grew to love it more since then...

Al, I guess you and I just like being different sometimes :)

JB
 
For all those that have forgotten, Jason has a world title under his belt with a straight 6BR!
 
Jason

Now don't sell the 6.5-284 short don't forget what I did at the world Open in 2006, a 6.1 inch agg for 2 days isn't bad and Kathy got second place score this year which isn't shabby.
I'd bet it's more about having a good barrel and bullets.
 
Yo Joe! Not selling it short at all. I had a good one of those too...too bad I wasted barrel life chasing gremlins that didn't exist :) I just think the 6.5x47 has more precision potential than the 6.5-284...but I may be wrong :)

Hope you aren't drownin' in snow up there!

JB
 
I think your right, hope Kathy didn't shoot too many 100's and 99's with the 300 WSM. Need a good barrel this next year. What always makes me think it's the barrel more than anything, is I have other 300 WSM that I have shot and done the same tricks with, but will not shoot with hers.

As for the Snow I love it, no grass to cut! And I don't sweat.
 
Shooter65
Don did very well at 600 yards but at the recent 1,000 yard nationals that same gun shot bad for 3 days straight.I even beat him and my gun was terrible until the last day.
He either re-barreled it or it prefers 600 yard matches.
Lynn aka Waterboy
 
I have a Kelby 6.5x47L with a Krieger barrel Panda action coming. Very curious to see how it will do at 600 and 1000. As noted, the 6br does very well at 1000 yards.
 
Shooter65
At Sacramento we usually have two conditions to shoot in.Condition #1 is very nice weather with no mirage and this condition is seen on average about 3 matches a year.In condition #1 the accuracy of the 6BR cartridge or the 6Dasher is very hard to beat.
Condition #2 consists of mirage and wind with the wind noy staying any one direction for very long.In condition #2 the heavy for caliber high bc bullets pushed out of a large case tend to shoot best.
The 6.5X47 and the 300WSM both seem to fit somewhere in the middle out here for lack of a better description.They don't seem to show the accuracy necessary to win consistently in the best conditions and they also don't hold up well enough in the wind to dominate either.
I have seen both win but neither is dominating or showing a large edge over other cartridges.
Waterboy

Edit:This is from Oneflyer.
Now let me tell you about Buhay and his 300 Ultra record. The day he shot the record was very rainy and cloudy but a GREAT day to shoot. NO wind. The conditions prohibited us from promptly scoring and mounting targets and John, who had a last relay. had the best conditions of the day to shoot in. He had brought the Ultra that day anticipating lousy conditions given the relay he had. He never shot that gun after that year and in fact shoots a dasher now.
I took this quote from an earlier post as it describes what I am talking about.The shooter was in Williamsport,Pennsylvania but what is important is he had a good weather rifle and a terrible weather rifle.As it turned out the terrible weather rifle liked the good conditions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfHqzlCPgS8
Here is the good weather gun in action.
 
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The good weather gun and the shooter is impressive. Not a bad idea.
 
As one who has kept statistics for all IBS 1000yd matches for many years and have produced reports and statisitcal analysis of that data.... i think a lot of people are miss-reading the data being presented here.
Just because the 6 Dasher owns all of(or vast majority) of the PA single target and agg records doesn't mean the Dasher is the end all solve all for 1000yd shooting.

How I read these stats is this tells me:

#1 - Montana has honeyhole out there as compared to the other clubs overall. On the average the conditions are more condusive to smaller groups and higher scores.
Please don't come back and tell me one day about 30+ mph winds etc etc. Every club has them. I've shot at the vast majority of the 1000yd BR range in this country. When you consistantly have record after record broken at one club.... its the range and conditions allowing those records to happen. It jsut happens that a gunsmith has his stuff together with a 6 Dasher and that is what was shooting at the Montana club to establish these records. And it doesn't hurt that excellent 6mm custom bullets are being produced right now.
So what I'm saying is this... Someone put together a very good well built 6 Dasher in Montana. Loaded it with great quality bullets and broke a record. This raised the eyebrows of other shooters and they had the same gunsmith build them a 6 Dasher "jsut like his" and now all the records belong to the 6 Dasher.
It's not the 6 Dasher that broke those records. It was a well built rifle system shooting very good quality bullets in very good conditions that broke the records. If someone had initially been shooting a 270 XYZ and broke on of these records long ago.... we would be seeing the 270 XYZ being promoted in this thread. But it doesn't change the fact that in order to establish an agg record you need great conditions and great bullets and a very good rifle system (read.. as a good barrel put together properly) in orede to do this. It's not any one magical case. It's bullets, barrels, and conditions!!

If you look at the years that agg records were broken for any given year in the IBS the majority of the time the overall average groups and scores were lower that year also for the club that the agg was shot at. That backs up the conditions being a LARGE factor.

Please don't misinterpet what was said above either. The Dasher is working and is a good case. Been beaten enough times with it. But its not all in the case. Its the bullets being loaded into it and what barrel they are being pushed down!

I remember I was one of the first to build a 6.5x55 Ackley in the IBS here in the east in 2001. My very first barrel was scary accurate. I won match after match, placed top 10 in the World Open and have some awesome groups first in testing that will raise eyebrows.
But its been mediocre ever since. A couple other guys built 6.5x55AI when they saw I was winning with it. But we then had bullet issues with 6.5s in general and since then 6.5 usage has gone down while 6mm and 30 cal has gone up. But where are the good bullets being produced right now? 6mm and 30 hands down. So its not the 6.5x55AI case that won those matches back then and its not loosing matches currently either... its was the very good bullets and a very good barrel that all came together at one time.

Steve
 
Steve

Couldn't have said it better. Barrels & bullets with good conditions, Just hope my barrels stay nice one more year. Hope to see you at one of the matches this coming year. Plan on making some of the Virgina shoots seeing is how Kathy is taking the year of. Even bought a new truck, so plan on see me.

Joe Salt
 
Steve...........Very well said! You can recall when I used those 147 gr. Clinch River bullets that Greg started making back in 2001-02? Bob and Leslie Crone were winning a lot of wood with the 6.5 x 284 super Bob developed and I jumped on the band wagon and got a reamer cut to his spec. With a lot of luck and Greg's bullets and the Krieger barrel, a small group record fell. At this time many shooters started jumping on the 6.5 x284 band wagon also. Now like you said, 6mm's and 30 cal's are ruling the rooste. Good bullets, good barrels put together right and plenty of luck. Now Tom Sarver holds the record with a .30.
Down here at Piedmont, the 6mmBRX has been hot in a Brux barrel. Guess what? Yup! I got the reamer and have since chambered five of them for myself and three friends.....Plus my XP-100 pistol that I have been using at the Hickory Egg Shoot. Now if I can just win some wood this year:D
Rich De
 
Steve,Joe and Rich De
I understand what your trying to convey here but do you think the 6.4X47 is in the same class as the 6BR and its offspring? I don't remember reading about ignition problems with the 6BR,6BRX or 6Dasher do you?

Also I read with great interest how one gunsmith is building great rifles and has the system all figured out.I don't have all the years of experience as you guys do but my local gunsmith working out of his garage has put barrels on 4 me in 6BR that have shot 4 world records.What is so different about the 6.5X47 that it requires a figured out system?

I don't want to sound arguementative here but it has been several years now and the 6.5X47 can use any of the 6.5 mm bullets available to the 6.5 Shehane or Souper or LoudenBoomer can't it? Can't the 6X47 use the same 6mm bullets as those 6BR's and 6Dashers? The same would apply to the barrels.

In a nut shell how is it grouping is what matters and it shouldn't take 6 years to figure that out in my opinion.If I built a 6BR and had to wait 6 years to get one to shoot I wouldn't use it.

I tend to see bullets running at 3000 fps shooting well and those at 3400 fps shooting well and a huge void between 3100 and 3350 fps in just about every caliber or right were the anythingX47 sits.
Lynn aka Waterboy
 
Lynn........Here is the thing............Everyone is looking for the "holy grail" and I admit, I have done so. Someone's winning a few matches and well, that is the hot cartridge. I have gone to the BRX but probably could do as well with the BR which I did and have???? I guess we help to keep the industry making money:D Yes, you can get a little more speed from the BRX but I find some of the winners shooting speeds almost the same as the BR? So who knows. In general, it comes down to conditions that are favorable or you just getting your shots off under a constant condition and not getting caught in a switch. How many four and ones have you had where a change in condition "gotcha!":D Lets face it, we just like to play with new toys whether it be actions, stocks, barrels cartridges and on and on.
Rich De
 
Rich De said:
Lynn........Here is the thing............Everyone is looking for the "holy grail" and I admit, I have done so. Someone's winning a few matches and well, that is the hot cartridge. I have gone to the BRX but probably could do as well with the BR which I did and have???? I guess we help to keep the industry making money:D Yes, you can get a little more speed from the BRX but I find some of the winners shooting speeds almost the same as the BR? So who knows. In general, it comes down to conditions that are favorable or you just getting your shots off under a constant condition and not getting caught in a switch. How many four and ones have you had where a change in condition "gotcha!":D Lets face it, we just like to play with new toys whether it be actions, stocks, barrels cartridges and on and on.
Rich De
Click to expand...

My sentiments exactly, just didn't realize it till I read your post.
Merry Christmas
vinny
 
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