3X9 and accuracy

ah yea

But when you throw an un-magical human into the equation, results cannot be measured except by that said human. Can he shoot better groups with said scope of 46X, maybe, maybe not, depends on the shooter!

We all know that a higher power scope should give the ability to see more of the target and should result in better groups if the shooter can shoot, but that is not guaranteed. We also know that larger targets give the viewer the same view as if using a higher powered scope so a 3x9 is just as accurate if used correctly.
 
Good info Fred but are you taking in considerations for lens coatings and quality of lenes?

I do have to print off this thread and take it to the next BR match.....I've ran out of jokes and a lot of posts on here will take care of that.

Oh...I got one...I'm gonna slightly modify it to be more politically correct for the middle of the roaders.

What do slinky's and liberals have in common?

Their both pretty useless but they sure bring a smile to your face when you push them down the stairs.

Hovis
 
I will stay with the theme.

I have been shooting fly's off my 100 yd target with a 3X9 Redfield and I was a bit disapointed in myself yesterday. I missed one, or so I thought. I changed to a 36 X Weaver and low and behold that same fly come back. I could tell it was the same one because one leg was just hanging and she walked with a limp. JP
 
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Wow, what a thread...

....I have noticed my groups shrink with a higher power scope with the same load??

I don't doubt the BR hunter shooters, I just think your eyes are better than mine. I have a Leupy Premier 18x40 that I go to when testing guns, then put on the hunting power for the critters. When I sight in, they are close in group size but not quite as small with the higher power in general. Most of you BR guys have forgotten more about shooting small groups than I know.

I bet if I still had my full blown ppc guns, that my groups would be smaller with the straight 45x than with a staight 6x.

But that is just me.....it really doesn't matter to me on a hunting gun as the hair / fur & feather cannot tell which scope is on it:)

pf
<><
 
Hovis,

By coincidence, I’ve been doing some testing on scope resolution both for telescopic sights and spotting scopes this year. Early on we found that the variability of visual acuity and color perception of individuals is greater than the actual variations in device resolution. To deal with that problem, we are re-doing the tests using a CCD camera and beam expander (relay lens) in place of the human eye to get a more consistent and repeatable record.

Another limitation is the lack of matching optical specifications (clear objective diameter and magnification) to do an A versus B side by side comparison of varying quality coatings and types of glass used in the lenses of telescopic sights. However, for a particular observer, when such comparisons are possible three conclusions can be drawn:

1. Newer models of old designs with improved coatings produce 3 to 5% better useable resolution.
2. The newer models have resolution limits very close to the Dawes Limit.
3. A single sample that uses ED (extremely low dispersion) glass through out and the latest coatings produced resolution limits 2 to 4% better than the Dawes Limit.

When we repeat the testing with the CCD imager in place of the human observers we hope to be able to better quantify the real resolutions attainable and then define a closer resolution limit equation constant for the different lens and/or coating types. At the very least we hope to provide a reasonable estimate of the range of deviation of resolution due to quality effects.

On a personal note, I’m about to be 64 and have been shooting for 57 of those years. Based on that experience and aging eyesight my advice is to get the biggest objective, most magnification and best glass you can afford. I have gone to March 50x for 100 & 200 yards and March 60x for longer range target shooting. If the mirage gets real bad I put in the “Modifier Disc” to reduce the resolution 33% but not the magnification. If I were to resume prairie dog shooting, I would not hesitate to get the March 10-60x variable.
 
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I have one rifle with a 7.5X Leopold fixed power scope. It is a 270.

I have no trouble seeing the bullet holes appear on the paper on the 100 yd target.

It is hard to see how a scope with that resolution would be all that hard to shoot good groups with.
 
It's not Pete!! You don't see too many men or women that can out shoot his rifle or his scope.

Can you shoot better groups with higher magnification, some can and some cannot. A good rifleman with a decent sized target can shoot groups just fine with a decent 3x9 scope. If you can shoot well and hold the same POA, the POI should be about as good with whatever sighting device you use.

I never said you cannot shoot good groups with higher magnification, just that higher magnification doesn't mean the groups will be smaller!! That is based upon the shooter.

I hope Hovis and the others don't bust a gut laughing about it too hard, because no scope can make a man shoot tighter groups if he isn't a decent shot to begin with.
 
Cntryboy1289: I don't know if "Hovis" is laughing at you, but I am.
Lets assume, cntryboy1289, that most folks reading these posts ARE "decent shots" (as you describe those who can benefit from more scope power when chasing accuracy!) then YOU answer the question that many people here refuse to answer - YES, with more scope power (other things being equal!) you will "benefit" accuracy wise!
Thats why BR competitors (who ARE "decent shots"!) strap on as much scope power to their Rifles as they can afford/obtain!
In other words - with more scope power a particular Rifle/ammo/shooter will be MORE accurate!
It so simple -its laughable to try to deny it in any way, with ANY type of rationalization or the imposition of irrelevant caveats!
Sheesh!
At the last BR competition I was at nary a 3x9 was seen or alluded to!
Dittoes at the last 1,000 yard BR event I attended!
Sheesh!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
 
Good post Varmint guy. It amazes me so many are willing to show lack of experience in print just so Hovis can get some material for his next meet. Good post Paul Fielder. JP
 
VarmintGuy said:
Tylerw02: If you are noticeably wiggling while using your 25 power scope you need to improve your bench rest technique and/or equipment.
I only approach my trigger when I am absolutely steady on my bench rests - ESPECIALLY when I am using my 24 power, 25 power and 36 power scopes.
There are all manner of ways to establish a dead steady resting position for your Rifle with high power scopes - you have to find one you are comfortable with.
Tylerw02 - would you say that you always shoot smaller groups with your Aimpoint and 2x dot than you do with your "magnified optics" on it, or was that .3XX" grouping with the Aimpoint a one time event?
Certainly YOU are not suggesting the Aimpoint's take the place of high powered scopes during br competitions or the search for most accurate loadings - are you?
Your calmness and confidence would both be enhanced with a better bench rest and better bench rest technique - that would get you easily and repeatedly to a dead steady sight picture and reticle alignment when you are shooting for accuracy.
By the way that was some kind of special grouping there with the aimpoint and the .3XX" group, good for you - I assume that was a 5 shot grouping at 100 yards - please correct me if that assumption of mine is not correct.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
Click to expand...


You'll have to excuse me, I've been gone.

The wiggling is from my heart-beat.

No, not suggesting using an AimPoint for BR competition, one cannot control their clicks and you cannot see where your last shot was.

The grouping was at 100 yards, and is pretty consistent out of my M4. So far out of the groups (which I don't often shoot, rather targets at unknown distance unsupported) are averaging around .4" for a five round group using a BR and rear bag.

I'd also like to add, the BEST group I've fired in my life to date, a three-round group of .010" with my .308 Winchester was using a NightForce 3.5-15x50 fired at 12x.

I only use as much magnification as I need to see the target. I have everything from 3-9x up to 8.5-25x optics. When I'm hunting prairie dogs, sometimes the 20x or 25x is necessary, but it definitely isn't for 100 yard target shooting. I have found no significant difference in my groups with the scope turned up to 25x or down to 10x.
 
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VG,
Where are you attending BR matches? I would like to compete a little more than I have been recently and since we are in the same neck of the woods (a couple of hundred miles or so) maybe there are some competitions nearby that I am unaware of. I am set up for both short range and 1000 yard and driving a bit doesn't bother me too much. I put on a little over 4500 miles last year driving to compete and a little over 2000 on PD trips, luckily I have lots of gopher shooting nearby.

Have you started competing in BR? If so what you shooting, short range and 1000 yard? It is a lot of fun isn't it, not to mention frustrating and it certainly makes one skeptical of the small groups that are talked about on the internet.
 
Lol

Either you cannot read or you just refuse too!!! I never said I don't prefer more scope nor that didn't have them on my guns. Like I also said, the scope isn't what makes the rifle shoot better, but the rifleman behind the crosshairs.

The scope is simply a tool. If you can use the tool with skill, the tool can help, no one ever denied that. Just because you have higher magnification doesn't mean you will shoot better but that the potential is there. That same rifleman still has to be able to shoot it.

I shoot a lot of peep sights and have no problem shooting very decent groups. I can shoot very good groups using the correct target as well. Maybe you just need to practice being a rifleman more so that you aren't so hampered by the magnification you are using ....... then again, it is easy to just change scopes out. Why should it bother anyone to be able to shoot groups in the .2's with a 40x powered scope but not be able to shoot better than MOA when using a 3x9 if that is what he will be using when he shoots the gun? Laugh on buddy!!!
 
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Simply put so you can understand, if all it took to bring home trophies was a higher powered scope, The ones that garner the trophies year after year would have more competition than they do!
 
Its all in scope power

Carlos Hathcock USMC sniper, 93 confirmered 1 shot kills, over 300 unconfirmered, and a 1 shot kill at 2500 yards confirmed and still stands today with an 8X Unertl mounted on a 50BMG, all others done with the same unertl and a Winchester Mod. 70 in 30.06. Yep its all about how much scope power ya have, not the skill of the man or woman behind it.
 
Your right, Carlos Hathcock was a great shooter with a 8x scope but if he had more power, there would be alot more dead folks walking around Vietnam IMHO. Seriously, screw on a 8.5x25 or larger scope of the same optical quality, using same rifle, same shooter...load...ect...ect, and can you honestly say he wouldnt have killed more people?

If he shot that well with an 8x scope and he killed nearly 400 people, both confirmed and not, Its my guess he must have shot at many more than that. Some of those shots were no doubt misses, for any of the same reasons that any one misses, other that their target generally does not get up and walk off down the Ho Chi Minh trail smoking a cigarette while chattering to the other targets in Vietnamese.

Yes, he did make a kill at 2500yards but do we know how many times he tried that shot and missed before connecting? Knowing that a 8x scope at 2500 yards must nearly obscure a person entirely(you 1000yards guys may have a idea on this) I would be willing to bet that if he had a 8.5x25 or whatever big scope available to him, he'd a been using it. BTW, anyone have any idea what a 8x duplex reticle would subtend at 2500 yards? I have no idea but I bet its wider that a person.

Heck, maybe I am mistaken too, but to find out, put your favorite 1.75x4 power scope off your deer/turkey hunting shotgun on your best shooting bench gun using your best tuned load and go shoot in a 1000 yard match, and if you win the match against all those same big ol bench guns and those 60x scopes, I would be quite surprised.

On the other hand, what the heck do I know? The closest I have evere come to match shooting is to qualify in the USMC years ago.

Jamie
 
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good question

It is interesting to think what he could have done with those big scopes. He had talent but he wasnt just the best sniper, He Was a damn good shooter to boot. being an old grunt, thinkya might like this. Think what he had back then.

On May 20th, 1959, at 17 years of age, Carlos N. Hathcock II fulfilled his childhood dream by enlisting in the United States Marine Corps. His ability as a marksman was soon recognized by the instructors on the rifle range at Camp Pendleton where he was undergoing recruit training. Later, while based in Hawaii as a member of Company E, 2nd Battalion, 4th Marines, Carlos won the Pacific Division rifle championship. Following his assignment in Hawaii, Hathcock was transferred to Marine Air Station, Cherry Point, North Carolina, where he quickly found himself shooting competitively again. This time he set the Marine Corps record on the "A" Course with a score of 248 points out of a possible 250, a record that stands today. The highlight of his competitive shooting career occurred in 1965 when Carlos out-shot over 3000 other servicemen competing to win the coveted Wimbledon Cup at Camp Perry


There ya go man, winner of a 1000 yard match, and the USMC record with iron sights to boot. Or at best an 8X Unertl , which I doubt.

Go Figure
 
DR4NRA: Are YOU suffering from the delusion that Gunnery Sergeant Hathcock (or anyone else!) would not have shot better with more scope power on their Rifle?
I am just gathering information on who is, and who is not, full of hot air.

Joe P.: Thanks!
You would NOT believe the E-mails and P/M's I have been getting regarding some of the folks who are interjecting this caveat and that caveat and avoiding the issue completely - THE issue being, when all else is equal, there is no doubt what so ever that a 20 power scope attains a higher degree of accuracy than is possible with a 9 power scope!
Otherwise why in the world do the BR competitors and the 1,000 yard BR competitors use scopes of 45+ power and not 8 power like Gunnery Sergeant Hathcock was issued???
None of the "contraries" seem to want to tackle that one!
I wonder why?
LOL!
Thanks again.

Tylerw02: So are YOU saying that while shooting a particular Rifle with the scope set on 25 power a Rifleman should not expect his accuracy to be better than when the scope on that Rifle is set at 8.5 power?
IF you are saying that then you are simply wrong!
And suffering under a very hard to rationalize delusion!
I currently have 3 Leupold scopes of the 8.5x25 power range type on VERY accurate Rifles I own!
I have tested them all for point of impact shifting tendencies when the power selector ring is changed from high to low and from low to high. The sighting verification shots are always more accurate (closer to my intended point of impact!) when shot at 25 power than when shot at 8.5 power!
I have done the same thing with my 6x24 variable scopes, my 6.5x20 variable Leupolds and Nikons and with my 6x18's, with my 5.5x16.5's, with my 4.5x14's, with my 4x12's, with my 3.5x10's and EVEN my 3x9's shoot "better" at the highest power!
I have been doing the above exercise for many decades now and seldom if ever is my contention proven wrong and then its just a "temporary" fluke.
Nice group there with the 308, by the way!
DON'T make sweeping contentions though, based on the results of ONE excellent 3 shot grouping from a particular Rifle! Over the long run you would see and observe a slight accuracy edge when that Rifle is shot at 15 power as opposed to when it is shot at 12 power!
I have never seen a BR match won with a 12 power scope!
Better accuracy is obtained with more scope power - often times 3 and 4 times that much scope power!

Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
 
VG

quote----"I have never seen a BR match won with a 12 power scope! "

Well, THAT's true enough ...... :) ....... you have never seen a BR Match.





To go clear back to the OP, NO sir, you will NOT see smaller groups with a larger scope, spend your money elsewhere.


All this other stuff is just muddying the waters.


al
 
Alinwa: You have now PROVEN yourself to be ignorant!
Ignorant regarding facts and ignorant regarding "things" other folks have done (like knowing which BR matches EVERYONE has attended)!
I'll give you a hint, if you are smart enough to understand it - I attended my first BR Match back when the Seattle area matches were held in Issaquah!
You're good for a laugh if nothing else, al.
Or, MAYBE you have seen a BR Match won with a 12 power scope?
LOL!
The water is not muddy at all there alinwa, its crystal clear why BR competitors use 45 power+ scopes - they can shoot more accurately with them than with lower powered scopes:rolleyes:!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
 
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