$3000-5000 Why

when some bubba tell's me about his ol one hole shoot'n remchester and his quarter inch groups I just invite him over to the private range to give me some lessions and let me see his "hall of fame bound"rust pole,,,,,,,,,,,, must have "invited" over a hundred in the last ten years,,,, probley had 2-3 show up,,,,,,,,,,, and thier ol' remchester,,,,,,,, it never live's up to the BS,,,,,,,,,,,,
and the one I really like is the guy with a wallet group, one group,,,,,,,,, the only decent group the 20 year old rifle ever shot,,,,,,,,,,,,,, or the guy that kill a doe 600 yards with his 30-06, ask him, where you sighted in at? he say's 2 in high @ 100, I ask where'd you hold it? his reply,"top of her back",,,,,,,want a be shooter's are more full of SXXT than fishermen,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

the wind is my friend,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

DD
 
On the flipside.... I had one guy come over to my range some years back with his Savage 22-250. My range at that time was 186yds from the poured concrete benches to the target butt. The berm was fairly "small" at about 15' wide by 8' tall the impact area. I told the fellow that I had a rule, he gets one shot at a low target on the 4X8 sheet of plywood target backer and if he can't find the shot we had to STOP!! shuck down our guns and move in to 50-80 yds and get him on paper.

He was fiddling with dials and cranking around from "a 350yd zero" and assured me that he "may not hit a bottle cap on his first shot but that that he could by his second shot" at this range. Factory rounds.

He figgered that his rifle should group under an inch at this range. He's shooting off a bipod with his coat rolled up under the butt.

He then proceeded to place three shots in a neat little triangle almost touching and not more than two inches from his call! I was shooting a PPC off a Sinclair rest and my other buddy was shooting a .243AI from a nice rest and this guy proceeded to hang right with us generally.......

Like WOW! This pertickler Savage with these pertickler Federal factory loads and him steering absolutely WOULD shoot three-shot groups "under an inch" at 186yds from his bipod. He's gone through a lot of rounds to find his combination and had a case of these Federal rounds.

Refreshing and an eye opener to me. :)

al
 
this may be the pet peeve of all people who

shoot for true accuracy, whether BR, High Power, Varmint or F-class.....

The reason is that the sub .25 MOA agg from a stock Savage has yet to be shot. I am a Savage fan, having built one BR type rifle myself and having had one REAL BR rifle built for me (by Fred Moreo) from Savage actions. Despite all the marketing and ballyhoo that Savage's marketing folks can afford, the stock triggers are STILL not BR competitive, nor is the barrel. Savage is making great progress, but they still must make a profit and you can't do that building a rifle with custom triggers, stocks, tuning and barrels for a sub 2000.00 price tag.

I think in the not so distant future we'll see one of Fred's builds or one like it using the Savage custom shop action shoot a winning agg. in a sanctioned BR match.

I see the most imaginative shooters on a regular basis at the barber shop I go to since both barbers are shooting/hunting addicts, and can affirm that 99.99% of them never seem to be able to come out to the range for various reasons. I meet a lot of owners of factory rifles at the high power range of the club where I shoot most and there actually are a couple who can shoot tiny groups at 200 yards (the max range at that club) they both have aftermarket barrels and etc... The other 99.99% of the ones at the range happen not to be shooting their "good" rifle today...........................
 
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amamnn said:
I think in the not so distant future we'll see one of Fred's builds or one like it using the Savage custom shop action shoot a winning agg. in a sanctioned BR match.
Click to expand...

Now this sounds like the basis for a wager. :)

I don't see it happening, unless Savage pays a top shooter to use a trued Savage action. Why? Because everyone capable of shooting a winning agg at a real tournament wants the advantage (firing speed/smoothness/bolt fit, large bedding surface, trigger hanger for the glue-in, Jewell or other BR trigger) of his/her favorite custom action. The margin of victory is too small to be handicapped by inferior equipment.

Just for my information, what does the Savage single-shot action weigh (compared to the 28-30oz typical of a dedicated LV custom)?

Toby Bradshaw
baywingdb@comcast.net
 
I didn't weigh mine and have seen no info on that subject. I HAVE seen and used Fred's new evolution trigger, and it compares favorably with my jewels. His stock on my heavy varmint rifle tracks the bags nicely; really all his work is first class. I can't say that Douglas barrel I let him talk me into was of the same quality and I've already ordered a Shilen replacement. Otherwise the gun is of the same kind of quality my Hammond or Bruno builds of past years have been. I think the word is beginning to get around.

The unofficial "team savage" has already won some F-class competitions, so I'm optimistic, especially as I am not the only one in this area to have bought one of Fred's 6mm builds, the other shooter here being a current competitor. My 6BR shoots a whole lot better than I do and I'm getting groups that I would not mention here due to the original post..........:p....... a better shooter, or at least one who can get to the matches up in Tacoma could be about to prove me right. I'd ALMOST bet on it but the disability check is already spent this month............................the shooters at the Tacoma range seems to be pretty hot lately------------
 
I wonder how far down the list you'd have to go to find the first factory action (a Rem, no doubt) at the Super Shoot? There aren't any factory actions in the top 20 (lately).

http://www.benchrest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52610
http://www.benchrest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61917

Does anyone know of a registered 100-200 LV/HV benchrest tournament that has a Savage action anywhere in the eqpt list? Or any factory action other than a Rem?

Most of the serious benchrest competitors I know are willing to spend the money it takes to put the best possible equipment on the line, because there is no other way to win consistently. You can't win just by having a great rifle, but you can't win without one, either. Half the rifles on the line will have a PAINT JOB that costs more than a new factory rifle! :)

Toby Bradshaw
baywingdb@comcast.net
 
jonmdavis62 said:
Why would B.R.shooters spend this kind of money for a gun
that will not shoot any better than an out of the box savage.We all know that most savage's will stay under.250
all day long,rain,snow,wind,also they shoot much flatter
than most guns"don't know why ,but it was on the net so
must be true" folks say it all the time.l thought l was a
good shot for fifty years but l am not l now know. l bought
three savage varment guns in the last five years,two in 223
one in 22-250 none would stay under .75 for 5 five 5 round
targets.Hell to get old,l will just keep shooting my old 40X
and 700 Remingtons they stay in .750 to one inch at 200yds.must just be me..What are your thoughts no B S..
Thank's for listening....Jon D.
Click to expand...


Jon,

I'm confused, why don't you just take your gun and wallet to a shoot...I'm sure you could find some owners of the full blown br rigs to make some friendly wagers and you could even post pics your winning trophy / gun and groups here for all the real br shooters to see eat some crow.

Seems simple enough and better than getting beat up on a thread if you can prove your guns capabilities. You might teach or even learn something by joining a match.

I would really like to see you try and get back with us.

pf
<><
 
I was out at the range today and a buddy told me I was all wet about the F-class too, although not for the same reason. You'll remember that I said that Savage actions were progressing TOWARD winning a sanctioned BR event and the F class wins were evidence.

Actually, as my friend pointed out, a Savage action shooter has already won at an IBS sanctioned match at Bridgeville R&P club in January 2008. Brian Fox is listed in the IBS news in the March 2008 issue of PS as winning the Heavy Gun 600 yard group event, shooting against what we have come to expect as the usual suspects as far as actions go.

If the criteria for buying and/or shooting only what you see on the equipment list at the super shoot was the way everyone thought, no new equipment would have been used since the first one. There are a lot more events and shooters than what you see listed there, anyway. Congrats to Mr. Fox and apologies for having forgotten his win.
 
amamnn said:
If the criteria for buying and/or shooting only what you see on the equipment list at the super shoot was the way everyone thought, no new equipment would have been used since the first one.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure how you reach that conclusion. The equipment, at least in 100-200 BR, has been getting steadily better, and the changes in winning equipment from sleeved 700s and 40Xs to custom actions reflect that. [If you go back far enough, BR actions included falling blocks and Mauser actions, too.] Evidence for improvements in equipment: winning aggs are getting smaller. As better equipment is produced, the top shooters use it. In fact, it is essentially impossible to shoot winning AGGS (not just single groups) without top equipment.

In what specific way(s) is a Savage action better than, say, the BAT actions that predominate in (winning) short-range BR now? If the Savage action isn't any better (and I'd say that it isn't, except for cost), why would anyone use it in short range BR? (For instance, how are you going to replace a trigger on the Savage when it is glued in?) And, if cost is the only advantage of the Savage, a guy spending $1/shot (if you factor in barrel wear) and shooting thousands or tens of thousands of rounds a year isn't going to mind paying a few hundred dollars more for the speed, smoothness, and firing control of a dedicated custom BR action. At least that's what the equipment lists over the past 20 years or so have to say about it.

Toby Bradshaw
baywingdb@comcast.net
 
If you only want to use what has been used on a list from before--how do you progress? anyway--my point has been made and is easily verifiable--
 
You progress by identifying (or at least hypothesizing) the weaknesses with current equipment, and engineering a solution to the weakness. If you think firing speed is important in short-range BR, for example, you might shorten the bolt throw by making a three-lug action instead of the "standard" two-lug. If you think easy bolt lift is critical for not disturbing the bags, maybe you try a roller bearing on the cocking cam. BAT gained quite a following in the short range game this way, by building a better mousetrap.

You've almost talked me into buying a BAT. :)

So, what problem does the Savage action solve in short range BR, that hasn't already been solved better by one of the customs (or even by the M700/40X)?

I don't have anything against the Savage action. It seems fine for a factory rifle, but (like any other factory action) it is not likely to show up on the winning equipment list at a registered short-range BR shoot anytime soon for the simple reason that there are better alternatives for that game, and the top shooters know it.

There is general agreement that with enough sleeving, truing, bushing, etc. pretty much any turning bolt action can be made to shoot well. At some point it becomes more cost-effective to pony up for the dedicated BR action than to re-work a factory offering, though, and that explains the overwhelming preponderance of custom actions in the winner's circle at short-range BR tournaments.

Toby Bradshaw
baywingdb@comcast.net
 
I have given a considerable amount of thought as to whether or not it makes sense (for me) to spend that kind of money on a custom rifle. I had made up my mind to do it until I traded for a 7mm rem mag sendero. I loaded up some 150gr Nosler Ballistic tips and was amazed at the accuracy at 100, 200, and 300 yards. Results have been equally impressive using 160, 168, and 180gr pills. Not saying that I won't eventually spring for a custom job as a retirement gift for myself but for the time being I'm saving up my beans for a high dollar piece of glass.
 
Nature Boy

If you are amazed at the accuracy of your Sendero, (I assume it is still "Factory"), you had best not get a true Custom. You would just drop dead from pure ectasy.:D......jackie
 
I look at it this way if you build a good custom rifle and shoot it for awhile and then you decide to sell it you will always get your money back. i built a 6BR with all the bell and whistles bat action bartlein barrel night force scope shshane stock.i have a ball with this gun punching holes in paper and shooting prairie dogs .
 
Northfork,
I guess I will let you sell the many customs that go through my hands. I pay a lot of money for them building them my self and then sell for a loss.
Butch
 
I'm with you on that one Butch. Only two guns (out of several hundred) that I ever made a profit on was a Class 3 MP5 and a Barret 82. That was only because of timing.
 
jackie schmidt said:
If you are amazed at the accuracy of your Sendero, (I assume it is still "Factory"), you had best not get a true Custom. You would just drop dead from pure ectasy.:D......jackie
Click to expand...

l think Jackie is 100% right.Over the years l have spent one hell of alot of money looking for an outstanding factory gun,l have four that are good,not the best,a 40x222 and a
40x6MM rem.one 700 223 and 700 6x47 rem."6x222Mag.
For what it cost to find these l could have bought a half
dozen Custom guns and been happy years ago and saved
money and shoot a lot better.lf you want to shoot ground
hogs buy anything,lf you want to shoot outstanding groups
buy Custom...
Jon D.
 
Butch Lambert said:
Northfork,
I guess I will let you sell the many customs that go through my hands. I pay a lot of money for them building them my self and then sell for a loss.
Butch
Click to expand...

That is no secrets. Just abut everybody knows no one that made money on a custom. That is why the used gun market is full of hope, build new to satisfy yourself, not for sale down the road. That is access to a gate called disappointment.

The only way I know to make money on a custom, is the guy doing the work, makes money.
 
Have Some Fun

In the '70's I spent thousands, and thousands, of dollars racing boats. When I quit, I sold the boat, (a Biesmeyer hull, the best), an injected 496 inch Rat Motor set up on methanol, a complete Super Stock 427, spare heads, blocks, cranks, props, etc for $6000.

Just the crank assy and heads on that 496 Rat cost that much.

But I had a lot of fun.


I quit worrying long time ago how much money I was going to recoup when I got tired of something. I would rather have fun. Heck, life is short.

While having fun, I also put my Wifle, my Daughter, and my Son-in Law through college, payed off a house, and met my responsibilities as a parent.

Of course, my Wife of 39 years has not always agreed with this philosophy. I think it was just last week when she asked me for the 10,000th time, "are you ever going to grow up??......jackie
 
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