220 Russian to 6 PPC

S

shinny

Shinny
When making 6PPC from 22 Russian, does anyone know how to eliminate the internal donut that forms @ the neck/shoulder junction, inside the neck. It starts to show up after the initial firing, post neck turning.

I was told to cut slightly onto the shoulder while turning.....I do this....to no avail. :(

Any other suggestions will be appreciated.
 
If you make sure that you have light feel when you close the bolt on a case and do not have to force the bolt closed. The way that this is controlled with my rifle is by how much is taken off the shoulder during turning, not enough and the bolt must be forced, creating an instant doughnut. If you get this right, the reforming of the body of the case actually draws some of the neck down into the top of the shoulder. That is why cases get shorter when fire forming improved or PPC cases. Another thing that I have see but not done is to lightly oil cases for fire forming (FROM .220 RUSSIAN TO PPC ONLY). I once saw a very good shooter doing this with a can of 3 in one oil. He would put a small drop on each case before firing and, using his finger tip distribute an even coat all over the case, and then chamber and fire it. Obviously the cases and chamber need to have all of the oil removed for subsequent use. Personally, I have never seen any proof that doughnuts harm accuracy as long as the shank of the bullet is not seated into that part of the case.
 
Centerfire said:
Why do you want to remove the donut?
Centerfire
Click to expand...

Plus 1.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and state that most BR shooters really have no reason to worry about the donut because they don't seat bullets any where near deep enough to interfere with it. If your bullets are binding up on the donut when you seat them, you need a longer throat or shorter bullets. Unless you are feeding from a magazine, there is just no reason to need to seat bullets that deep. It will be a never ending source of annoyance.

Scott
 
PM sent

Boyd Allen said:
If you make sure that you have light feel when you close the bolt on a case and do not have to force the bolt closed. The way that this is controlled with my rifle is by how much is taken off the shoulder during turning, not enough and the bolt must be forced, creating an instant doughnut. If you get this right, the reforming of the body of the case actually draws some of the neck down into the top of the shoulder. That is why cases get shorter when fire forming improved or PPC cases. Another thing that I have see but not done is to lightly oil cases for fire forming (FROM .220 RUSSIAN TO PPC ONLY). I once saw a very good shooter doing this with a can of 3 in one oil. He would put a small drop on each case before firing and, using his finger tip distribute an even coat all over the case, and then chamber and fire it. Obviously the cases and chamber need to have all of the oil removed for subsequent use. Personally, I have never seen any proof that doughnuts harm accuracy as long as the shank of the bullet is not seated into that part of the case.
Click to expand...

Boyd sent you a PM.
 
220 russian to 6ppc

There was an article in PS magazine many years ago talking about the doughnut. and how it effected accuracy.
The article stated that a doughnut Inter feard with gas flow and cause accuracy problems.
The best thing is to cut enough into the shoulder of the case. I usually fireform mine with junk bullet before turning.
That helps me get the proper case neck shoulder junction to set the pilot ..
 
GerryM said:
There was an article in PS magazine many years ago talking about the doughnut. and how it effected accuracy.
The article stated that a doughnut Inter feard with gas flow and cause accuracy problems.
The best thing is to cut enough into the shoulder of the case. I usually fireform mine with junk bullet before turning.
That helps me get the proper case neck shoulder junction to set the pilot ..
Click to expand...

What caliber bullet? .22?
 
shinny said:
When making 6PPC from 22 Russian, does anyone know how to eliminate the internal donut that forms @ the neck/shoulder junction, inside the neck.It starts to show up after the initial firing, post neck turning. I was told to cut slightly onto the shoulder while turning.....I do this....to no avail. :( Any other suggestions will be appreciated.
Click to expand...

Forget the Donut. The 6PPC has been shooting great with it in place for years. Spend the bulk of your time shooting over your wind flags.
 
I think if there is any concern over the donut it is in the theory of a "vortex" or narrowing of the flow of burning gases and that's pretty difficult to quantify. On the other hand, I just plain don't like the donut and don't want one in my cases. The fine folks at Wilson or Forster make the neatest little cutters, mine are .242" in diameter, and on a fired case they make any concerns over what a donut might do just disappear.
 
Gas flow

The donut would inhibit gas flow were it the only restriction. A benchrest rifle has a major restriction beyond that of any donut. The restriction I refer to is known in these parts as a bullet. Pretty sure that the gasses can pass the donut adequately to keep up with the bullet. However, somebody should test this.....
 
Wilbur said:
The donut would inhibit gas flow were it the only restriction. A benchrest rifle has a major restriction beyond that of any donut. The restriction I refer to is known in these parts as a bullet. Pretty sure that the gasses can pass the donut adequately to keep up with the bullet. However, somebody should test this.....
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Well done Wilbur ( again) Now and then I have use for the neat primer remover Neil Jones came out with way back then. It's a bit irritating to have a case with the donut that won't allow this tool to do it's job. Other than that...
 
220 Russian to 6PPC

Gene Beggs said:
First of all, you will need a shoulder setback die to push the case shoulder back 35 to forty thousandths before expanding up to 6mm and neck turning. I sacrificed an old RCBS 22-250 FL die to make mine by cutting off the base.



Gene Beggs
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Hi Gene. Good post. Just curious. Wouldn't initially fire forming,220 russian,using a fast powder(Pistol) without a bullet,in a 6PPC chamber,eliminate the shoulder set back step in your instructions? I don't have a 22-250FL Die.:(



Glenn
 
Donut

Gene Beggs said:
Hi Glenn

Fire forming before neck turning would not prevent a donut from forming at the junction of the neck and shoulder. The purpose of pushing the shoulder back is to move the step created by neck turning back up into the shoulder rather than having it form right at the radius.

Sometimes you can pick up used sizing dies at gun shows very reasonable. If you can locate one I'll be happy to modify it for you.

Hope this helps

Later,

Gene Beggs
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Thanks for the offer Gene. I was just curious. So far,I have not had a problem with donuts,that I am aware of. I have a K&M neck turner that has a carbide mandrel that has little flutes on the tip,that is suppose to remove the donut.

I occasionally use it when my Neil Jones primer remover wont go past the neck/ shoulder junction on some of my brass. Haven't had to do that for a very long time. I suppose I finally learned how to turn the necks on my brass.



Glenn
 
Fireforming without bullet

Butch..I've found that fireforming without a bullet gives you a straight neck to turn. The necks come out as straight as the chamber will allow. You get an even line at the neck shoulder junction,after turning. The finished product looks good,but I have not been able to prove that it makes a difference on the target. regardless of the fireform method,I have gotten donuts when I dont turn the necks, slightly into the shoulder area. I keep my K&M tool handy,just in case. Haven't had a donut in a long time. I hate turning brass. reminds me of peeling potatoes on KP duty in Army basic training. I'd rather somebody else do it.

I've heard of some competitors using no turn necks in the 6PPC. I wonder if they are troubled with donuts. I'd like to see some answers to this question.



Glenn
 
"No Turn neck"

Oh, your question about donuts in no-turn cartridges? Nope, I haven't noticed any. In both my cartridges a bullet will fall all the way through the neck of a fired case.



Gene Beggs[/QUOTE]



Good Stuff Gene. Looks like you've been busy. Several years ago,I almost purchased a no turn neck reamer for my 6PPC. Due primarily to my dislike for turning necks on brass. My .262nk chambers seemed to shoot as good as I was capable. Just couldn't persuade myself to make the switch. Besides,you could always find somebody at a match with some (Virgin) turned .262nk brass for a 6PPC. I had to borrow some brass one time, when I left home without mine. Shot that whole weekend with 12 pieces of brass. These are the things that I like and remember about Benchrest Competition.

To answer the OP's question. The "No turn" neck may be a simple solution to the dreaded donut.


Glenn
 
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