22 BRT and 6mm BRT

mturner

Member
I know I'm a big fan of 30 caliber, but I have also been playing with a couple of small cartridges. These are based on the 6.8 SPC with the small primer. The 22 case is 1.5" in length and the 6mm is 1.6". The capacity of the 22 is the same as the .125" short 22 PPC, while the 6mm is the same as the 6PPC. The 6mm will be the easiest to make because it is only shorter than the parent cartridge by .075". Both use 30 degree shoulders. The full length would also work great with a capacity between 6 PPC and 6 BR. So far I have only chambered a barrel in 22 BRT and it was shooting .1's first time out. The load of powder I used is in the 25gr. range of Benchmark, 322, or similar burn rates. Velocities are in the 3500 range for the 52gr. bullet. I have attached a picture of the 22 BRT. And now even the 6 BRT (not neck turned), but so late on the 6 that many will never view it.

Michael
 

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Contender?

Michael,

It just dawned in me, seeing as how the 6.8 is a factory offering in the TC Contender, I should have you chamber a barrel in 6mm BRT! How sweet would that be? I'll have to see if Fred at Bullberry will build a barrel unchambered? My guess is no but it doesn't hurt to ask.

Michael
 
Another option

You can simply neck the 6.8 SPC down to 6mm. I have two hunting rifles chambered in the full length version. I call it the 6mm Velocicat. The shortened version is 6PPC capacity. The non-shortened version falls right between the 6PPC and 6BR capacity. The only way the shorter version would show better accuracy is in a true bench gun.

Michael
 
i have a question for you. other than just trying something different , why ?

the reason i ask why is that gene beggs has the 22 beggs and the 6 beggs ( and i hope the 30 beggs) all based on the 220 russian case. none require the work yours do.
not pissin at ya, just askin' why......
( ps "cause"...is an acceptable answer)
nothing wrong with trying somethign different.

on the up side...would love to hear more on your 30-30.

mike in co
 
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Michael

Everything that the other Mike said.

Go for it.

Not my best photograph but here's a 22 Lindahl Chucker, ca. 1940. Made from a shortened 25 Remington case, the same as the SPC is based on. The Chucker was one of the most popular live varmint cartridges of the 1940s and was a Benchrest favorite between 1944 and 1950.

Ray

chucker.jpg
 
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Michael

That is one nice looking 22! I'm not surprised it's grouping in the .1's.

Tony Carpenter
 
Work

Michael, I commend your efforts in trying different concepts, your 30-30 certainly shows that with just a little attention to detail, and some brainpower, you can make even the "lowly " 30-30 a competitive offerring.
As a Competitor, though, I am not looking for anything that requires more work than what we are already doing with the 6PPC. I have found that the novelty of anything will wear pretty thin when you finally get tired of anything much past turning necks and fireforming.
But, that is probably what shooters told Palmissano and Pindell when they first started the conception of their namesake.
Keep up the effort.......jackie
 
I've thought for a long time that this cartridge (the Lindahl Chucker) would make a wonderful varmint rifle in either .22 or 6mm. Now that the 6.8 brass is available I might try one.

Before anyone asks why - its because it will feed from a magazine which is something you don't get conveniently from a BR or PPC case. And its got just a bit more capacity - perfect.

Henry


Michael

Everything that the other Mike said.

Go for it.

Not my best photograph but here's a 22 Lindahl Chucker, ca. 1940. Made from a shortened 25 Remington case, the same as the SPC is based on. The Chucker was one of the most popular live varmint cartridges of the 1940s and was a Benchrest favorite between 1944 and 1950.

Ray

chucker.jpg
 
A agree with Jackie here

Michael, I commend your efforts in trying different concepts, your 30-30 certainly shows that with just a little attention to detail, and some brainpower, you can make even the "lowly " 30-30 a competitive offerring.
As a Competitor, though, I am not looking for anything that requires more work than what we are already doing with the 6PPC. I have found that the novelty of anything will wear pretty thin when you finally get tired of anything much past turning necks and fireforming.
But, that is probably what shooters told Palmissano and Pindell when they first started the conception of their namesake.
Keep up the effort.......jackie

I have a 30-284 X 1.650 that I lusted for for a number of years. I am finally using the rifle in it's third year of life because of a mechanical problem that finally was solved. It is the best shooting HBR rifle I currently have HOWEVER, the thought of making more cases is a dread. I spent a lot of money on a die to make the cases so I am locked in to it for a while at least but I just ruined 15 of the cases trying to get the doughnut out of them and I nearly cried! It is fun and cool to have odd stuff but the new does wear off it pretty fast.

The concept Gene has of STANDARDIZED dies is a big step forward. The pain of wildcats is the cost and availability of a proper full lenth sizing die. STANDARDS in a number of things we use would be a good thing.
 
Bryan

Yep, he's the guy. He made it in both rimless and rimmed versions and also two slightly longer called the Super Chucker rimless and rimmed. I have all 4. The only thing that seperates them from todays cartridges is that he worked with the 25 Remington brass and wartime 22 bullets made from fired 22 rimfire cases.

Michael's version is just a wee bit shorter than the Chucker and is probably a better design for todays powders.

The 25 Remington case, in addition to the SPC, was also the basis for a couple of experimental cartridges developed during the tests leading to the adoption of the 5.56x45 (223). As Henry said, that case head could be making a comeback.

Ray
 
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I spent a lot of money on a die to make the cases so I am locked in to it for a while at least but I just ruined 15 of the cases trying to get the doughnut out of them and I nearly cried! It is fun and cool to have odd stuff but the new does wear off it pretty fast.

The pain of wildcats is the cost and availability of a proper full lenth sizing die.

Being smarter than a die ain't a hard thing and the road to same is well traveled. -Al
 
Cheechako

Small World, to say the least!
I grew up exactly 1 block east of Les Lindahl in Central City, Ne.
I used to buy lots of rimfire ammo and rifles from him, but that was before the idea of a custom rifle ever entered my mind. I remember him as being the premier gunsmith in the area, and his rifles are highly sought after to this day.
Bryan
 
mturner:

That's a very slick cartridge! :) What, if anything, are you doing to the inside case necks after forming? -Al
 
Al

I do ream the inside before neck turning. I would think that the same thing I ran into would also be the same for the short 22PPC. That is anytime you shorten a case by a small amount, the neck shoulder junction leaves a small ripple in the new neck. Reaming before neck turning seems to be a quick and simple cure. These cases don't seem much harder to make than neck expanding and fire forming a 6PPC. I don't have to fire form to remove the body taper like you do for a PPC, just fire it the first time to make it really fit the chamber really nice. The .100-.125 short 22PPC is really a great performer, but probably no more accurate than this cartridge, and probably even harder to form. Another thing to note about this new cartridge is that it is already rimless, uses a small rifle primer, and is hard brass like the Lapua cases. One thing I can say about this cartridge is that it is truley all American. However, I don't really look for any cartridge to replace my 30-30. It requires the least effort of all to make cases. Easier than a PPC since I keep the stock dimensions and shoulder angle. I shot a 4 - 5 shot group agg. before I left for Raton. I know it takes 5 - 5 shot groups for a complete agg., but I ended up with a .146" agg. My load was 38.5gr of H4198SC with a 110gr bullet for a velocity of 3250fps.

By the way, this post was refreshed when a guy was interested in a super accurate cartride for his TC Contender. From personal experiance, I have found than any cartridge larger than the 30-30 case diameter causes way to much thrust to run any significant pressure. This is the main reason for the development of the TC Encore frame.

I will read through this thread more and answer other questions. I have been away all evening and just got in a 4:00 AM. Ready for bed.

Michael
 
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Michael,

I assumed you were making the case neck i.d.'s straight by some means before outside turning....thanks for the confirmation. -Al
 
Al

What do people do on the Waldog since the shoulder neck junction winds up in the middle of the neck? Do they also have to ream?

Michael
 
30-30 Answers

A lot of people wonder why I shoot a 30-30. I have a lot of good reasons. The 30-30 was the first smokeless powder sporting cartridge, and while it has the lion's share of popularity in the deer hunting world, it was never considered a very accurate cartridge. I have shown in competition that it is more than capable of winning matches. I can honestly say that my 30-30's are the most winning bench guns I have ever competed with, and I have played with many including the PPC. The 30-30 is 118 years old. I won my first championship with it back in 1995. I called Winchester to see if they wanted to use my benchgun in a 100th year aniversary advertisement showing how accurate the cartridge really was. The answer was "why"? I said "to give it a boost in sales". He laughed at me and told me that they sell more 30-30 ammunition than any other cartridge.

I shoot groups and score. The 30-30 has proven just as good to me as any PPC could for group. It has trounced the PPC consistantly in the score matches. I shot in New Braunfalls for 3 years and I was competing against myself for score by setting new range records all three years. I had more confidence in that gun than I have ever had in any. Arnold Jewel and I used to shoot for quarters at 200 yards. The most X's was the game. Three X's was the norm for the 30-30, and four was even better. I always took Arnold's quarters, but one day when the gun just seemed to be shooting exceptional, I told Arnold that I was going to take his next quarter with 5 X's. He said that it never happens at 200 yards. The next target I fired scored 5 X's. The five shots would have been a mid .1" group at 200. All of you know that I'm no Tony Boyer. Saying that I have demonstrated the 30-30 to it fullest capability at winning matches would be as ignorant as saying that if I shot a 6PPC, I would become the top BR shooter. The fact is, I'm just not very good at all when it comes to match conditions. I used to be many times better than I am now, but that was before taking an 8 year break from benchrest. I hope it doesn't take years to get back waht I had at New Braunfalls.

Now some of you might want to know how the 30-30 idea came about in the first place. Back in the mid 90's, I was shooting club matches in Burnet, TX. I built my first BR action because I was a poor boy. I had a 6mm 14" twist Douglas stainless blank. I couldn't afford a reamer, so I ground a 6BR tight neck reamer, chambered it up, and just cleaned the barrel up leaving the gun around 17 pounds. The game was 200 yard unlimited bag gun. I chose the BR over the PPC because I would be shooting 70gr Sierra Matchkings to save money. Another reason was because we shot without flags, they were legal to use, but because we shot about seven different types of matches, nobody wanted to deal with them. As it turned out, my BR did well against the PPC and custom bullets. After winning the championship with the BR, a guy named Andy Lyda from Bertram asked me why I wasn't shooting a PPC. I told him that without flags, I felt the BR might have a small advantage at 200 yards. He continued to tease me about it until I decided to turn it around on him. I said "Andy, I could out shoot your PPC with any caliber". He said "what do you mean by any caliber". I said "a 30-06, a 308, even with a 30-30". Andy told me to put my money where my mouth is, show up with a 30-30 next year and I'd get laughed off the range.

On the drive home I just couldn't get it out of my mind. I knew we were both just joking around, but it seemed like to much of a challenge with his ending statement. I thought to myself, am I really stupid enough to show up with a 30-30? Then I thought "why not, it's all about having fun".

TJ Jackson had just passed away, and my father and I drove to Austin to buy some BR stuff from the estate. He had a used Shilen polygon rifled barrel that was still 28" in length. I ground another tight neck reamer, and chambered it up. Because it was a 14" twist I decided to try 150gr Matchkings and 38gr of IMR 4320. The gun shot increadibly well, and pushed the 150 a tad over 2800 fps.

Next BR season came around. After the first match and another win, nobody laughed me off the range. After the season was over, I had beat Andy 8 out of 8 matches for another easy championship. After my experiance with the 30-30, I knew it was the beginning of a lifetime love affair. Before the 30BR, I had already started shooting barrels in the 18" twist range with 110gr - 125gr bullets, and the first matches I won in New Braunfalls were shot with the 125 TNT Speer bullet.

Why the 22BRT? Back before I quit shooting 8 years ago. I took a 30-30 case and shortened it to PPC length. The capacity was perfect "Waldog" capacity. I called it the 22 Hummer because it would push a 52gr over 3600 fps. The case still had the large primer, so even though it seemed like it might have match winning potential, it was not easy to shoot an agg. smaller than a low .2" range. Now I know that size agg. has won plenty of matches, but I'm not talking about match conditions, I'm talking about dead calm, sun setting evening conditions. When the 6.8 SPC came out, I had a rimless case based on the 30-30 that was 222 length, had a small primer, and was way easier to form a short 22 from. My first testing was easy since I already had a barrel chambered up. The new cartridge proved to be "Waldog accurate", and is truley a 30-30 based American cartridge.

To sum it up, I have a ton of fun doing things my way.

Michael
 
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micheal,
thanks for the info, good luck with your attemps to do it different!

mike in co
 
What do people do on the Waldog since the shoulder neck junction winds up in the middle of the neck? Do they also have to ream? Michael

Michael: I'm not sure how most set up their Waldog neck i.d's. Quite honestly, I've seen very few of them at matches. It's pretty hard for most to make the case (multiple puns intended :D) when the Lapua 220R case necks up so nicely into a 6PPC. Probably the only downside is the case neck shortening when it's fireformed..leaving a bit more room between the end of the neck and the chamber than most like. But this is a pretty easy work around.

I started working on the inside case necks when I was shooting the .30 WareWolf..essentially the 308W with the shoulder pushed back .165. Now that I shoot the 30BR and the 30 WolfPup (30BR blown foward .240 with a .085 neck length), I do inside neck work on both of these.

No doubt that I'm in the minority, though. Geez...whoulda' thunk that German/Norweigan from South Dakota would ever be a 'minority'!!!??? :eek: ;)

Downtrodden in The Forbidden Zone. :D -Al

P.S. Thanks for the history on your 30-30 deal. The Hunter Benchrest guys on the East coast have a long history with the .30 Aardvark..an improved 30-30 that can win anytime and anyplace.
 
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