10% Ethanol in gasoline?

Diesel

The reason Locomotives are Diesel Electric is logistics. The problem of getting the power to the wheels ismuch simplified by the fact you can locate the Engine in themiddle,anduseTraction motors on the axes. Think of the gear trains and the such that would be involved if the Diesel Engine drove the wheels directly.
In the Marine Industry, there are applications where the Diesel Engine drives the propellor directly through a reduction gear and shaft. There are also applications where the Diesel Engines drive Generators, and the generators, power large motors, which drive the propellor through a similiar reduction gear and shaft.
The advantage of the Diesel Electric is you can place the Diesel Engines any where that is practicle in the vessel, making room for other things, such as cargo.
The Diesel Electrics will typically burn about 15-20 percent more fuel at the same power rating.
Any time you use a energy source as a primary to drive a secondary, there will be a energy lossin the transfer.
Most of the so called enrgy boosters touted by those that say 'you can double your milage' are simply pie in the sky. At this time, a modern internal combustion engine is remarkably efficient. Especially when compared to those just 20 years ago.
Here is an example. It has been about 15 years since the Diesel Electronic Fuel Curve Controle was developed for large Diesels. We were involved in the first set of "60 Series" engines that went into a 800 HP push boat. They boat had regular roots blown 12-71 Detroits that made about 380 HP each on a good day, consuming approx 26 gallons an hour. They replaced them with the new Electronic Controled tubo charged 60 Series, and they made 450 HP, using just 20 gallons an hour.
More power, using a LOT lessfuel. Sort of makes you wonder where allof that diesel was going.Into the pan,and into the air.
I donot have any figures, but I would bet that the engine in a typical 2008 automobile is reaching 95+ percent efficiency.........jackie
 
Jackie...

thanks for the info. I have heard many different descriptions of Diesel Electric but most from those who have never worked with them. I actually thought they were a little more effecient than losing power through a drive train and that's why they were used on locomotives and large dump trucks (like used in coal mines). I have also heard that the Diesel Electric setup requires less maintnance and are more dependable (less moving parts, etc). Is this correct? Here in southern Indiana we have a lot of HUGE coal mines so there is no lack of BIG equipment, most of which seem to be Diesel Electric now.

Hovis
 
jackie schmidt
Now you got me worried I just had a rebuilt Detroit 8-v71 put in my boat. the Dyna report from the rebuilder shows it putting out 300 hp if a 12-71 puts out 380 maybe I'm getting fed a line from my rebuilder. I have $12,500 into the rebuild so I want it on the up and up. tanks for the info.
 
No free lunch or power in this universe

jackie schmidt said:
Electric Cars. Sure, you just plug it in. But, since the laws of Physics have not been repealed, it still takes a certain amount of energy to move a certain weight object a certain distance in a certain amount of time. That energy has to me made somewhere.
Well, it comes from a power plant. Our Power Grid in the United States is already stretched to the limit. Just think if you added about 20,000,000 cars to it, having to re-charge daily. How many power plants will have to be built to do that. And, what are they going to use for fuel.


The simple fact is, there is no free lunch. There is more to it than just converting cars to run on electricity. It would probably take 10 to 15 years to build enough power plants to produce the needed electricity. And what is going to be used to make that electricity. Probably fosil fuel, whether it be oil, coal, or natural gas.
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Jackie,
You just brought up two very good points. When deregulation hit the electric utility industry, companies split up into production and distribution. The production or generation end of the business is concerned with generating enough electric to sell over the grid to power brokers; this being the de-regulated end of the business. The distribution end deals with the transmission lines, maintenance on these lines, and the grid. Many companies that used to maintain their overhead transmission lines had dedicated line crews and high voltage crews as in-house employees. The grid was well maintained. Utilities have now divested themselves of many of these former responsibilities and have sub contracted much of this work out to the lowest bidder. Many of these utilities are concerned with producing as much power as possible in the generation end, resulting in the transmission and distribution end not receiving maintenance and upgrades it once enjoyed. What does this mean to the average consumer?

It means the transmission lines delivering your power are not in the best condition and the money is not there to upgrade. When storms strike, it will take longer to restore your power, etc. Many people really have no understanding of the drain on our aging grid system electric vehicles will place. It's a great idea but oversimplified because you have to charge these vehicles at night and that takes power.

You are correct in stating we will need to build new power plants to supply this power and upgrade our T&D (transmission and distribution) resources in order to power electric cars. Our electric demands are growing, not decreasing and that will require more power.
Chino69
 
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Using a conservative assumed value of the energy content of ethanol of 50% of that of gasoline and also assuming a 90% mix, the mix will cost you 5% of your fuel mileage. If you are used to 20 mpg, you will get 19, etc. That is hardly detectable given changes in driving conditions.
 
Koginam

The industry standard in the push boat industry was always around 380 hp for a 12-71. But most Tugs place a tune on them that is just shy of fullpower, mainly to get the hours of service. You know how those old Detroits are, push them a little too hard and parts start coming out the exaust.
I suppose you can play with the boost and fuel curve and make more power untill the crank comes out the bottom.
As of next year, the old two-cycles, along with the 149 series Detriots, will be outlawed in the Inland Tugs. Just too many emmissions. Every body is having to go to super efficient electronic controled Turbo Diesels.........jackie
 
TomD said:
Using a conservative assumed value of the energy content of ethanol of 50% of that of gasoline and also assuming a 90% mix, the mix will cost you 5% of your fuel mileage. If you are used to 20 mpg, you will get 19, etc. That is hardly detectable given changes in driving conditions.
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Tom,

That and the difference in altitude pointed out by wilbur could have made the difference in my two trips.

If your math on the figures are correct, and they seem to be, we should pay for the Ethanol in the gas at at the rate of 50% of what we are paying for gasoline.

Concho Bill
 
jackie schmidt said:
I donot have any figures, but I would bet that the engine in a typical 2008 automobile is reaching 95+ percent efficiency.........jackie
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I seem to remember reading that typical modern gasoline engines are about 25% efficient and the theoretical efficiency is around 70%. The theoretical efficiency is related to the difference in the combustion temp vs the ambient temp of the environment in to which the exhaust flows.

I guess global warming will reduce our gas mileage even more :rolleyes:
 
JDPowell said:
I seem to remember reading that typical modern gasoline engines are about 25% efficient and the theoretical efficiency is around 70%. The theoretical efficiency is related to the difference in the combustion temp vs the ambient temp of the environment in to which the exhaust flows.

I guess global warming will reduce our gas mileage even more :rolleyes:
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Now the Mechanics are telling us the 10% blend is hurting the engines,The report is saying small eingines(lawnmowers ect) are being destroyed with the 10% blend .
???????????? i think i'll stick to 100% gasoline,Sunoco which is 100% american made.
 
the ethanol tends to attack various types of rubber and plastic fuel lines. the rubber ones get soft( disolve) and colaspe, plastic gets hard and brittle and starts cracking or breaks off alltogether. I see alot of this on small engines. I'm sure it has a lot to do with the quality of the coponents in the first place as I do not see this as an issue with our relativly current crop of autos. Inaddition prehaps it has something to do with the fuel going stale, which seldom happens in our autos.
 
blades

The attacking of rubber and plastic is exactly why the marine industry says "don't use gas containing ethanol". Some boats use plastic gas tanks, as do some cars and trucks.
 
So do a lot of current

I was reading in the Auto section this morning, and found that numerous current models have a type of plastic fuel tank. I now wonder if this new Ethonal blend will actually harm more than it helps.
 
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