10% Ethanol in gasoline?

Bill Wynne

Bill Wynne

Active member
With all of us driving to the ranges for benchrest matches :)or traveling for a hunting trip, :)I have made an observation that need to be checked out.

In the last week I have made two trips from my home in San Angelo, Texas to Fort Worth and Dallas. The distance to Fort Worth is about 225 miles. In my car I got 27.4 miles per gallon going and 25.2 miles per gallon returning. In my Yukon I got 19.3 going and 17.2 returning. I drove both ways at the same speed and there was no great wind.

The only difference I can think of is I used unleaded regular gasoline without Ethanol going and gasoline with 10% Ethanol returning from the same station each time. I have noticed similar differences on all of my trips over there in the last few months. Until the last trip I had not noticed the Ethanol sigh on the pump at the station in Fort Worth.

Has anyone else noticed any difference using Ethanol?

Concho Bill
 
I think that has to do with less energy in the ethanol fuel.

I also think more energy is spent producing ethanol fuel than you end up with..

just my thoughts...
 
Yes, you will get somewhat less milage from ethanol blended "gas", as it does not produce the same amount of energy per volume as pure gasoline does. I don't usually buy from the cheapest vendors because they do use an ethanol blend. However, in the winter time, an ethanol blend is good for removing water from your fuel system (just like buying gas line dryer/antifreeze).

Scott
 
Ethanol is more expensive per gallon than gasoline
Ethanol produces less btu per gallon than gasoline

Thus you pay more to get lower performance.
 
My understanding is that Ethanol has about 2/3 the btu's per volume as gasoline.

Unless something is done to increase the engine's efficiency like raising the compression ratio, adding Ethanol will generally decrease MPG.
 
Correct. Fewer BTUs in ethanol (Granny's corn squeezins) than in gasoline. Dilute the gasoline BTU with ethanol and presto... lowered fuel economy.

They just didn't tell you to expect that one did they now?

Food for fuel...DUMB!!!
 
But

If you do increase the compression, and adjust the fuel curve properly, pure ethenol will make more horsepower per revolution of the engine than does gasoline.
Of course, the drawback is, you burn darned near twice as much of it per revolution of the engine.
We used to burn methanol in our Race Boats to go to K-Boat, (unlimited engine). Granted, methanol is not the same as ethanol, but acts similiarlly in the Engine. You up the compression, burn about twice as much, and get 20 percent more power.
About a year ago, Car Craft Magazine did a test similiar to what the originol poster did. The took a Flex-Fuel Tahoe, and drove from LA to Chicago on regular Unleaded. They kept strict records on cost and fuel consumption.
In Chicago, the filled up with E-85, and went all the way back to LA on E-85.
While the E-85 cost less initially, the added fuel consumption actually made the trip home cost a little more.
I read an interestion quote from a Refiner. He stated that the only reason they make it E-85, (blending in the 15 percent gasoline), was to keep those that might be inclined from drinking it. Ethanol is simply pure grain Alchohol.......jackie
 
Is the ethanol blend required in the large cities like the Metroplex area for cleaner air or something?

I understand that it is homegrown fuel and not imported oil but there seems to be some things that are not being put on the box of this product.

Concho Bill
 
Bill

You gotta go uphill 1400 feet to get from Dallas to San Angelo. Works out OK in the end since it ain't uphill both ways.
 
Wilbur said:
You gotta go uphill 1400 feet to get from Dallas to San Angelo. Works out OK in the end since it ain't uphill both ways.
Click to expand...

Now I got it. Next time I have to go up to Dallas, I will really be going down to Dallas. Simple.

Concho Bill
 
Nothing is Free

This whole 'alternative Fuel" thing is ripe with misconceptions.
Ethanol. It comes from corn. It takes energy to grow corn, and to harvest corn, and finally to turn corn into Ethanol. Think of the cost of the fertilizer, not to mention all of the runnoff that is killing the northern section of The Gulf of Mexico. Also, the price of corn is making it too expensive to eat.

Electric Cars. Sure, you just plug it in. But, since the laws of Physics have not been repealed, it still takes a certain amount of energy to move a certain weight object a certain distance in a certain amount of time. That energy has to me made somewhere.
Well, it comes from a power plant. Our Power Grid in the United States is already stretched to the limit. Just think if you added about 20,000,000 cars to it, having to re-charge daily. How many power plants will have to be built to do that. And, what are they going to use for fuel.

And then there are the batterries. That energy has to be stored so that the electric motor in the car can use it. This is secondary energy. Just as a Deisel-generator pack looses about 28 percent in energy transfer, (engine to generator to motor), the same happens when you use a fuel to drive a turbine, which drives a generator, which then transfers the energy to a battery to run another motor.

The simple fact is, there is no free lunch. There is more to it than just converting cars to run on electricity. It would probably take 10 to 15 years to build enough power plants to produce the needed electricity. And what is going to be used to make that electricity. Probably fosil fuel, whether it be oil, coal, or natural gas.
So by converting everything, you will create a system that waste about 20 to 28 percent of the available energy in a given source.

Of course, a centralized generating system will tend to be more efficient. But, the cost of transmission, the cost of storage, and the natural loss will, in reality, put us about where we are now as far as consuption goes.

This seems so stupid when we could just start making use of all of our domestic fossil fuel resources. The technology is there. Think of the jobs it will create. Hundreds of offshore platforms, with all of the support industries that it will take to keep them going. Huge Shale oil sites that will require machinery, and people.
We can be green, make America independent of outside energy sources, and develop all of our alternatives, (wind, solar, nuclear), while doing it......jackie
 
No politics???

jackie schmidt said:
This seems so stupid when we could just start making use of all of our domestic fossil fuel resources. The technology is there. Think of the jobs it will create. Hundreds of offshore platforms, with all of the support industries that it will take to keep them going. Huge Shale oil sites that will require machinery, and people.
We can be green, make America independent of outside energy sources, and develop all of our alternatives, (wind, solar, nuclear), while doing it......
Click to expand...

Jackie--This is political. Bill & Wilbur--HELP!!!!
 
Bill Wynne said:
With all of us driving to the ranges for benchrest matches :)or traveling for a hunting trip, :)I have made an observation that need to be checked out.

In the last week I have made two trips from my home in San Angelo, Texas to Fort Worth and Dallas. The distance to Fort Worth is about 225 miles. In my car I got 27.4 miles per gallon going and 25.2 miles per gallon returning. In my Yukon I got 19.3 going and 17.2 returning. I drove both ways at the same speed and there was no great wind.

The only difference I can think of is I used unleaded regular gasoline without Ethanol going and gasoline with 10% Ethanol returning from the same station each time. I have noticed similar differences on all of my trips over there in the last few months. Until the last trip I had not noticed the Ethanol sigh on the pump at the station in Fort Worth.

Has anyone else noticed any difference using Ethanol?

Concho Bill
Click to expand...

Yes,i get about 30 to 40 miles less per tank full using the 10% blend,Couldn't figure it out until i looked on the pump at Wal-mart and then started checking that gas against Sunoco and then the difference showed up.
 
We've been duped by speculators

Guys if you do a google search of oil reserves by country we rank 11th in the world with 21.4 billion barrels.Saudi Arabia is ranked first at 241 billion barrels.
Now while your on Google type in Bakken Formation and you'll quicky see on April 10th 2008 the USGS estimates we have over 500 billon barrels in this field alone which is more oil than the top 10 countries combined.
We are being duped by the speculators exactly the same way as we were duped by Enron.
Do the google search and see for yourself.
Lynn
 
vicvanb said:
Jackie--This is political. Bill & Wilbur--HELP!!!!
Click to expand...

Vic, this is not a political discussion but rather a scientific one. Wilbur pointed out, correctly, the difference in elevation. Jackie mentioned in passing a few scientific arguments on the production of Ethanol and how alternate sources of power should be used. Roger agreed with me that he got less milage with the Ethanol blend but his Wal-Mart is possibly in a low spot and he has to clime out of it when he leaves.

We are talking about Ethanol blend gasoline here and how we can get to shooting events on the least fuel. It is not a political subject and it should not be viewed as one. Feel free to join in but let's keep politics out of this discussion.

Concho Bill
 
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One of the worst possible chioces for making ethanol = corn
Best possible choice = switch grass
either way cost is higher to produce than current fuel + infrastucture
source = son, phd in organic nano chemistry
Wind power into electricity max efficiency = 20%, Hydro much better except for all the epa/dnr restrictions making this source all most impossible.
Solar, newer cell technology is bringing cost down but not far enough to be viable on large scale at this point.
Hydrogen fuel cells or on board generation, lot of chafe, hard to seperate what is true or false, has possibilties, seems to be an awful lot of information suppresion going on in this area.
Regardless, the type or source of energy of what will be pushed is that which is supported by the most tax breaks, research grants ect.
Food for thought.
 
Lynn-
I followed your suggestion and spent 3 hours reading up on the Bakken formation, which I had studied a little in the past. I found that the recoverable oil in the formation is probably closer to 3.6 Bbls. This would occur over a very long time and if the current rate of production was tripled it would supply .4% of US consumption. That hardly constitutes salvation for our energy needs or proof of our being duped by speculators.
 
I was asked to invest in a hydrogen fuel conversion system by a friend of mine who is pretty savvy on new technology. He installed a kit in four of his farm vehicles and on his own car, one he installed himself the others he had done by a professional installer, and adjustments had to be done to get the right blend, cost was around $1500 per vehicle, the kit he installed himself was around $400 for the book and parts. seems to work nearly as well as the professionally installed kits. With the cost of gas it will pay for its self in less then 1 year. Now this is just adding hydrogen to the gas at the carburetor not hydrogen alone. He found it added MPG between 4 to 6 MPG, and hasn't noticed any loss of power, He has been running tests for 8 months no negative results as of yet, at the end of the year he will tear down one of the farm vehicles engines and see if their is any excessive wear to the engine. He is looking for a kit that runs on hydrogen alone. He is buying a natural gas conversion kit and going to experiment with it. This site will send you a report its a little biased http://halfwaterhalfgas.com/net.php
 
Snake oils????

We read these claims, and find in most instances, they are just trying to sell you a book. I have yet ti see on of these in operation or know anyone personally that has benefited by getting better fuel mileage.
 
Well I can only go on the experience of my friend, he is pretty excited about the prospect of this working. He is checking out the results for himself not taking anyone's word as gospel. I'm sure their are problems with it as their are in many new products, that's why I am waiting before I invest any of my hard earned money. But I will keep an open mind as to the possibilities, I think we will find an additive or a alternative fuel for oil, one that won't cost as much to produce as ethanol. I have also seen some gas/electric options similar to diesel/electric train engines that are showing promise, small engines big electric motors on each wheel, power to spare just heavy and expensive to build.
 
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