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longrange223
Guest
al,is that a hunter taper barrel with gene's tuner on it?thinking of doing a hunter taper on my lv so it will make weight with a tuner
Tuner Weight
- Thread starter Pete Wass
- Start date
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AVanGorder
Guest
Randy,
I have a light gun, with a tuner, in the works. I use Weaver scopes so that saves me the weight for the four ounce tuner.
Adrian
I have a light gun, with a tuner, in the works. I use Weaver scopes so that saves me the weight for the four ounce tuner.
Adrian
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longrange223
Guest
using my march scope & need the smaller taper to save weight,just wonder if al's was a hunter taper so i could use the beggs tuner i already have
thought I'd throw in another tuner that I am just beginning to tweek. It is made by Time Precision, and can't weigh more than 4-6oz. Had a little difficulty early on with it coming off during a session, but a little loc-tite and some tightening of the screws will hopefully take care of that problem. Time will tell (no punn intended...sort of)
http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc103/mikesuhie/DSCN1848-1.jpg
http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc103/mikesuhie/DSCN1848-1.jpg
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Yes, it is. The thread on Gene's 'standard' tuner like I used is .900X28. I heard that Gene was making them with a smaller diameter for those using Hunter tapers that wanted to tuner a bit more 'up front' than where mine is...not sure if that's true or not. maybe Gene will see this and chime in. I wanted mine back a 'ways from the muzzle, so the .900X28 worked out well.
Hope this helps.
-Al
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Jim Borden
New member
works on LV with March
I am using a Bartlein barrel that weighs 5# complete with 4 ounce tuner installed on LV with March scope--works well.
As Jackie pointed out--heavy tuner not needed if you have a barrel taper that works for you and you get a load that works the tuner keeps it in tune (if adjusted properly).
Jim
I am using a Bartlein barrel that weighs 5# complete with 4 ounce tuner installed on LV with March scope--works well.
As Jackie pointed out--heavy tuner not needed if you have a barrel taper that works for you and you get a load that works the tuner keeps it in tune (if adjusted properly).
Jim
Pete Wass
Well-known member
What I find pleasing
is the civil discussion and the numbers of people participating. A year ago it was a different story. I know there are a few over the muzzle tuners being used with success. As I recall from my RF days, all of the tuners wroked rather they were in front or behind the muzzle. I suspect CF rifles are not much different. Back then my favorite was a Fudd that was behind the muzzle but the Turbo I had as well as the bulbous Black one with the nice vernier marks on it worked as well. ( Note, I haven't once uttered the "I told ya so" words - )
is the civil discussion and the numbers of people participating. A year ago it was a different story. I know there are a few over the muzzle tuners being used with success. As I recall from my RF days, all of the tuners wroked rather they were in front or behind the muzzle. I suspect CF rifles are not much different. Back then my favorite was a Fudd that was behind the muzzle but the Turbo I had as well as the bulbous Black one with the nice vernier marks on it worked as well. ( Note, I haven't once uttered the "I told ya so" words -
)
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Jim Borden
New member
Front versus rear
Lynn
I have tried ahead of and behind muzzle and found that both work--however, behind the muzzle worked better for me (less shift in POI for adjustments to the tuner)
Jim
Lynn
I have tried ahead of and behind muzzle and found that both work--however, behind the muzzle worked better for me (less shift in POI for adjustments to the tuner)
Jim
S
shevelin
Guest
From a mechanical/vibational point of view, weights either behind or in front of the muzzle work exactly the same to tune the "node" to a quieter spot. The rear position gets away from the muzzle blast effects/problems of the front mounted tuners.
Scott
Scott
Butch Lambert
Active member
I believe it works better with the weight beyond the muzzle. It is easier to move the dead spot to the crown that way. Ring the barrel with an electronic stethoscope and see for your self.
Butch
Butch
On a max heavy varmint barrel I find 5-6 ounces 11-13 ounces and 22 ounces works real well.On the big 1.450 barrels a bit over 3 pounds is working real well.
I also have my weight out in front as per Bill Calfee's instructions and the only downside is when cleaning.My heavygun tuner is made out of brass or bronze and the cleaning fluid tends to turn it green.
The NBRSA 600 Yd Nationals is 2 only weeks away and I will be able to see how my heavygun does in a big match against some well tuned rifles.
Lynn
I also have my weight out in front as per Bill Calfee's instructions and the only downside is when cleaning.My heavygun tuner is made out of brass or bronze and the cleaning fluid tends to turn it green.
The NBRSA 600 Yd Nationals is 2 only weeks away and I will be able to see how my heavygun does in a big match against some well tuned rifles.
Lynn
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tim in tx
Guest
scott sir
i have to agree with butch.but it depends on what you you want to do with a tuner.fine tune only or correct velocity variance with fine tuning ,by weighting in front of the muzzle it seems to leverage the muzzle or modify the wave hence major poi shift but at the muzzle or behind is just slowing the present wave down or speeding it up so there is very little poi shift. as far a recessing the crown i have seen certain effects with the larger cals by restricting the muzzle but the smaller [ppc,br ,dasher] dont seem to be hurt at all ,my dasher crown is recessed aprox 4 inches so i waundered as well, upon testing for load work up it shot well at 100, and the first 1000yd group was 3.9 inches right out of the gate,and that is my personal best group as well.needless to say my nerves were calmed about the recess issue. tim in tx
i have to agree with butch.but it depends on what you you want to do with a tuner.fine tune only or correct velocity variance with fine tuning ,by weighting in front of the muzzle it seems to leverage the muzzle or modify the wave hence major poi shift but at the muzzle or behind is just slowing the present wave down or speeding it up so there is very little poi shift. as far a recessing the crown i have seen certain effects with the larger cals by restricting the muzzle but the smaller [ppc,br ,dasher] dont seem to be hurt at all ,my dasher crown is recessed aprox 4 inches so i waundered as well, upon testing for load work up it shot well at 100, and the first 1000yd group was 3.9 inches right out of the gate,and that is my personal best group as well.needless to say my nerves were calmed about the recess issue. tim in tx
Tim In Texas
Tim
If you remember what Bill Calfee said about you can never set-up the correct wave shape with the tuners weight source on the barrel itself here is a quick test.
Take a very long fishing pole and get it whipping up and down so you can see the wave clearly.Now add weight to the pole just back from the tip and see what happens clothes pins work real good.
Now tape a number 2 pencil to the poles tip and repeat the test using paper clips/clothes pins as weights but this time tape them out onto the pencils tip.
It will look like the wave has shifted and the node is now at the tip of the pole not the tip of the pencil.
Lynn aka Waterboy
Tim
If you remember what Bill Calfee said about you can never set-up the correct wave shape with the tuners weight source on the barrel itself here is a quick test.
Take a very long fishing pole and get it whipping up and down so you can see the wave clearly.Now add weight to the pole just back from the tip and see what happens clothes pins work real good.
Now tape a number 2 pencil to the poles tip and repeat the test using paper clips/clothes pins as weights but this time tape them out onto the pencils tip.
It will look like the wave has shifted and the node is now at the tip of the pole not the tip of the pencil.
Lynn aka Waterboy
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JerrySharrett
Senile Member
Lynn, just don't eat the green stuff. I don't know if you know anything about growing vegetables or not, but the green stuff is copper nitrate. It was known as Copper Dragon or Blue Dragon and is an insecticide. It was used to kill insects on bean and potato vines.
The copper nitrate is the reaction of the copper in your brass tuner and the ammonia in the cleaning fluid.
That was before the guvmint told us it killed us. Stuff like that, DDT, buttered popcorn and such. We didn't know that for centuries. We just lived till we died. Now we know better. No butter on popcorn???
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tim in tx
Guest
exactly lynn
that is what i am seeing as well,but wouldnt you think that when you move the wave it is making the wave longer?i have done the fishing pole thing and understand what you are saying but ,at present i am experimenting with a one peice barrel,[weak middle]with a recessed crown so i can cut it without recrowning. after trimming and ringing the node is right at the crown,the main problem is that is still goes out of tune in a very small temp change,i have had some excellent testing weather sometimes even for a whole hour.when the node was in front of the crown or when the node is at the crown it still went out of tune the same amount,2 loads shoot their own individual groups,while they are decent[no verticle] 100 yd groups they are still different in size and more so at 1000. i am afraid to cut more off and move the dead spot behind the crown but will if need be.so when you have the correct weight does your rifle stay in tune throughout the whole days temp swing?i am just trying to meet all of bills criteria,i can match some but not all. tim in tx
that is what i am seeing as well,but wouldnt you think that when you move the wave it is making the wave longer?i have done the fishing pole thing and understand what you are saying but ,at present i am experimenting with a one peice barrel,[weak middle]with a recessed crown so i can cut it without recrowning. after trimming and ringing the node is right at the crown,the main problem is that is still goes out of tune in a very small temp change,i have had some excellent testing weather sometimes even for a whole hour.when the node was in front of the crown or when the node is at the crown it still went out of tune the same amount,2 loads shoot their own individual groups,while they are decent[no verticle] 100 yd groups they are still different in size and more so at 1000. i am afraid to cut more off and move the dead spot behind the crown but will if need be.so when you have the correct weight does your rifle stay in tune throughout the whole days temp swing?i am just trying to meet all of bills criteria,i can match some but not all. tim in tx
Pete Wass
Well-known member
I have talked to
several people who use tuners and all of them have said the tuners don't need to be turned very far to change things. Inherent in my origional question was " would a 2oz tuner work as well as a 4oz if it can be moved more to achieve tune?" It is relatively easy to shed 2oz but beyond that requires bigger changes. It would be a lot easier to use tuners on existing rifles if lighter weight tuners could achieve the same result.
several people who use tuners and all of them have said the tuners don't need to be turned very far to change things. Inherent in my origional question was " would a 2oz tuner work as well as a 4oz if it can be moved more to achieve tune?" It is relatively easy to shed 2oz but beyond that requires bigger changes. It would be a lot easier to use tuners on existing rifles if lighter weight tuners could achieve the same result.
Tim In Texas
Tim
Glad to see you still working on the tuners.
There are several ways you can move the dead spot to the crown.
The first way is to change the frequency of the wave.Higher frequency=shorter wavelength or more waves on your barrel.Lower frequency=longer wavelength and fewer waves on your barrel.
The second way is to change the starting angle of the wave.You are shifting the starting point so naturally you are shifting the ending point if the wave stays the same length.Phase shift if you will.
What Varmint Al said was that all we are doing is to dampen the amplitude of our wave giving us a larger window of opportunity to stay in tune.Picture a wave with 1 foot of rise and 1 foot of drop or 2 feet peak to peak.When we add weight to our muzzle we are affectively only changing our peak to peak value or flattening the waves height and trough.This flattening of the wave only broadens our tune window.We still need to load to a certain point but a small change doesn't wreck our groups as much as it normally would.
Bill's idea in Precision Shooting Magazine was to change the length of our barrel to get closer to the peak then to add the necessary weight to further dampening it.Picture a wave were the peaks are flat looking or resemble a square wave.
In this case any consistant load would shoot good.
We could have multiple good loads for the same barrel.Not a true stopped muzzle but one with a very wide flat peak rather than a short spikey peak.Bill always said to call it what you will but the terminology dogs bit him so often he left.
I am not Bill so my tuners still need a tweak here and there to stay in tune.The good news is any weight added to the muzzle will dampen it.
I suspect Bill who has worked on the tuners for 30 years has kept good notes.He has the ideal length and weight required to achieve his goal written in stone.
Lynn aka Waterboy
Tim
Glad to see you still working on the tuners.
There are several ways you can move the dead spot to the crown.
The first way is to change the frequency of the wave.Higher frequency=shorter wavelength or more waves on your barrel.Lower frequency=longer wavelength and fewer waves on your barrel.
The second way is to change the starting angle of the wave.You are shifting the starting point so naturally you are shifting the ending point if the wave stays the same length.Phase shift if you will.
What Varmint Al said was that all we are doing is to dampen the amplitude of our wave giving us a larger window of opportunity to stay in tune.Picture a wave with 1 foot of rise and 1 foot of drop or 2 feet peak to peak.When we add weight to our muzzle we are affectively only changing our peak to peak value or flattening the waves height and trough.This flattening of the wave only broadens our tune window.We still need to load to a certain point but a small change doesn't wreck our groups as much as it normally would.
Bill's idea in Precision Shooting Magazine was to change the length of our barrel to get closer to the peak then to add the necessary weight to further dampening it.Picture a wave were the peaks are flat looking or resemble a square wave.
In this case any consistant load would shoot good.
We could have multiple good loads for the same barrel.Not a true stopped muzzle but one with a very wide flat peak rather than a short spikey peak.Bill always said to call it what you will but the terminology dogs bit him so often he left.
I am not Bill so my tuners still need a tweak here and there to stay in tune.The good news is any weight added to the muzzle will dampen it.
I suspect Bill who has worked on the tuners for 30 years has kept good notes.He has the ideal length and weight required to achieve his goal written in stone.
Lynn aka Waterboy
Jim Borden
New member
Tim, Butch, Lynn
I agree that ahead of the muzzle does more for changing shape and moving node--however, for the way I am using them, the behind muzzle position works best for me. More or less of a fine tune. I prefer to keep the POI shifts small.
Jim
I agree that ahead of the muzzle does more for changing shape and moving node--however, for the way I am using them, the behind muzzle position works best for me. More or less of a fine tune. I prefer to keep the POI shifts small.
Jim