Tuner Weight

pete you could go with 2 ounces but may need 4 inches of thread

and lynn good points,i fear the weak middle barrel could be an issue, i had figured i might have a narrow tune just because of barrel contour ,other than being 2 peices screwed together henrys barrel is very similar to mine but he claims a wide tune window on his so i just have to waunder,i think the dampening effects by a threaded joint alone could flatten the frequency hence widening the tune but not sure as well as a rubber snuber.i think jackie has the right idea to widen the tune by dampening with his tuner,the way i see it it not only could flatten the frequency but smooth out the wave as well making it a bit more predictable.soon hope to find out.and mr borden sir ,i can see your point as well,just being able to fine tune at the bench has showed me just how out of tune my gun really was and that was an eye opener for me.but just for the sake of putting some arguments to rest what i am looking for is a no tune no adjustment needed or a tune at least equvelent to 60 degrees wide or 180 fps wide and the only way i can see it happening is by correcting a wide range of velocities to go in one hole which has been done to a point or stopping the muzzle which has not been done at least by me.this could benifit short range as well as long range shooters so this is my quest.funny thing is i have a barrel that can correct the normally seen variance but has no tuner on it at all, but to have a true no tune in normally shot temps sounds crazy i know but i believe it can be done eventually. tim in tx
 
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Tim In Tx

Tim
In talking with Henry he has tested the weight required on his muzzle with several different barrels.I know he has them all numbered because in his e-mails he often refers to a particular numbered barrel for his thoughts.From memory he started out with a very small amount over the bore size and opened it up as he thought necessary to complete his testing.From memory again he shortened the length until he reached a certain point all the while keeping quality notes.
I certainly don't want to guess or put words into Henry's mouth but I suspect the groups shrank at a rate proportional to the amount of weight removed and Henry being Henry figured this out down to the brass tack.This wasn't a one barrel test is what I am gettin at.
I know he doesn't like traditional tuners at all but has what he calls muzzle weights on several of his guns including his personal hunting rifle.Interestingly he gave me a weight range to use on my heavygun tuner and my final weight and his were only off by 2.4 ounces.On a tuner weighing more than 3 pounds thats a pretty good estimation.
I had Jay,Idaho make me 3 tuner bodies at various lengths that hold the Roger Von Aherns tuner weights.I have used two sets of his weights to get an idea of what my barrel wants then have the tuner made.Scott "Fudd" Hamilton makes a very nice tuner.
I had Jim Borden set-up two test barrels for my fathers Predator that uses the Stiller 6 ounce tuner as a baseline.The Jay,Idaho threads are the same so everything interchanges.If you want to try this set-up out give me an address and I'll mail you the tuner bodies and two complete Von Aherns weight sets for testing in 0.5 ounce increments to 24 ounces.
Lynn aka Waterboy
 
Thanks Tim

threading 4" would seem worth the effort to me to be able to install a tuner on an existing barrel without a drastic lightening process.
 
Something to ponder

What is the possible effect of a great length of straight centerfire barrel.
 
AVanGorder said:
Something to ponder

What is the possible effect of a great length of straight centerfire barrel.
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Are you talking about a great length of threaded barrel or just straight turned barrel?

The rimfire folks have used a straight diameter barrel for some time, even reverse tapered barrels. The straight diameter barrels make the barrel more responsive to tuning.

In 2005 I used several straight turned barrels for two reasons; one that I mentioned above and two to remove weight to keep in the 10.5 pound LV/Sporter limit.
116o0ll.jpg
 
I remember someone saying

straight barrels tuned easier than tapered but were harder to keep in tune. Did I hear that wrong? As long as the max taper isn't exceeded every thing is Jo To, isn't it?
 
thanks lynn,i apreciate the offer

after getting some confirmation info from varmit al about my thoughts ,al says it is prabably some high frequency ripples ,i have the weight i need with jackies tuner and mine but i am going to integrate a rubber dampener and see what happens if i can in fact get rid of these high frequency ripples .i will let everybody know how it works out. tim in tx
 
Jackie

What I do with my tuners is sort of what Jerry alludes to. I find the load that the "combination" likes, then I keep it in tune with the tuner..........jackie[/QUOTE]

Do you work up the load first and then install the tuner or work up load with tuner on the barrel? Or maybe on second thought the bold print above answers my question.

Donald
 
On one of the barrels I have with a tuner, I first developed a load without the tuner on the barrel. I got it shooting about the best it would then put the tuner on and fine tuned it from there. It was a rather quick process.

Adrian
 
Thanks Adrian. Just needed a nudge in the right direction......Donald
 
When you say " Best it would"

AVanGorder said:
On one of the barrels I have with a tuner, I first developed a load without the tuner on the barrel. I got it shooting about the best it would then put the tuner on and fine tuned it from there. It was a rather quick process.

Adrian
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Are we talking Mickey Mouse ears, a big round hole - - - -
 
weak middle barrel testing

well guys ,i thought you might like to hear the latest testing on the weak middle or intigrated tuner barrel,this is a 6 dasher with 105 berger thicks,in the beginning the crown was cut to when the dead spot was at the crown it was 4.25" from the end of the barrel,the gun shot reasonably well with 2 loads at 1 grain difference and at 100yds, but went out of tune very fast with a single load , when shot at 1000yds i lost 1 inch of group for every 2 degrees.at this point there was aprox 10-11 onces in front of the muzzle ,then i went back to 100 yds to shoot duel loads again and the fast loads hit high on target and slow loads hit lower by about .075,as the end of the barrel was trimmed back about an ounce at a time the dead spot was moving rearward of the crown by the same , the differing load groups were still unchanged in size and poi difference which seemed odd, but as i aproached the point i am at now with the dead spot which is right at 2.25 behind the crown,the at 100yds the slow loads shoot same poi as the fast loads and as a single load groups they are very tight and seem to have a wide tune as well,i am not sure of the ultimate extemes of temp but so far it has worked out to 72 degrees to 93 degrees.the tune was centered orginally at 72 degrees now it is centered at 82 degrees as well with minimal dispersion of grouping to the end of the temp extremes[1 bullet hole].if it is trimmed further it will starting flipping the bullets at 100yds but will be correcting velocity variance for longer ranges,i know this because while fireforming with very slow loads the slower velocites within a normally seen variance were hitting flipped[slow bullets hitting higher then the fast bullets]but i will leave the barrel length here for now and do some more testing at short and long range. i let you guys know what happens in future testing. tim in tx
 
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Some questions Tim :

When you say Dead Spot, how did you establish that? by ringing the barrel or some other method? I was wondering the same sort of thing the other day. When one sees being able to turn an ugly cloverleaf into a hole that will measure in the high zeros shot at 100 yds, one has to believe. I wondered if there may be a way to tune the barrel by cutting it back but there has to be a method to be able to determind where to cut it, eh?

From my experience with the aforementioned tuner, a 1/4 turn seemed to be the RIGHT amount . We tried fine tuning from there with no good results. It seems that there is some sort of magic in a quarter turn; with those two rifles anyway.
 
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pete sir

i believe the the reason tuner adjustments are differing is because the quarter of a turn deal is probably behind the muzzle,when in front the adjustments are much more sensitive and change poi more as well.with this particular weak middle barrel there is no tuner but the shape is there and it is all one peice,the muzzle is counterbored and then is trimmed back,weights are added at times to determine if i am going the right direction by cutting back .the reason being 1 no distortion of the bore and 2 no threaded joint to drownd out were the dead spot is.it is practicly impossible to ring a barrel with a threaded joint which will deaden the whole barrel.with a one peice barrel it is easy to ring and find the dead spot .as far as trimmming to a certain length in this case with weight in front of the muzzle works and will change many things such a tune width and in tune temps. tim in tx
 
Tim In Texas

Tim
On the 30 inch 1.450 straight heavygun barrels in a barrel block of 8-9 inches you get the same quarter turn affect at a touch over 3 pounds out in front 2.25 inches.That set-up essentially makes the barrel 20 inches long at 1.450 inches straight.
Your barrel is probaly longer than those used by the short range benchrest guys so it requires a different amount of weight.
I think Henry Childs backbored his muzzle then he opened up the inside diameter until he achieved what he was after.He is using Krieger blanks if my memory is any good and a PM may get you his thoughts on what you need.
Lynn
 
really lynn,so does this apply for everybody?except me

well could be due to the certain weight in which my bullets are flipping and by correcting velocity variance the adjustments are much less?after pete brought this issue with adjustable weight up i made a 5 ounce tuner brake/velocity correcting with a .50 ounce adjustable weight for a buddie of mine on a savage 22-250. his adjustments were zero through a whole day of shooting,and poi between 3 different factory loads and 2 bullet weights was the same[or minute of prairie dog] he was shooting at around 600yds and in .he nor i have a clue on his tuner adjustment yet but will soon i am sure. we didnt have much time to tinker with it so he said he just adjusted it in at 100yds and locked it in , my tuner setting was adjusted once a little over the width of one indexing groove but that was after a 58 degree high humidity morning to a 82 degree low humidity afternoon i had about 4 -6 inches of verticle at 800 yds at 82 degrees the adjustment while very small put it back in dead on level every shot.as gene suggested the formula is the way to go for consistancy and i guess my adjustments are smaller than most but for the first time i feel confedent all i have to do now is shoot the wind without fear of dropping one out due to a velocity variance. tim in tx
 
You guys are starting to find out that the 3-5 ounce tuner does not tune the barrel. It just tunes for the moment, at that condition.
 
Anyone who has read

JerrySharrett said:
You guys are starting to find out that the 3-5 ounce tuner does not tune the barrel. It just tunes for the moment, at that condition.
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these forums over the past couple of years and has been paying attention to what others have experienced realize what you said is true. It appears to me that the 30 BR may be somewhat of an exception. I have heard a couple of people say that they never move their tuner once they tune the load they are using in. As I recall from the past when I shot RF and had tuners, once I found the tune for a certain lot of ammo the rifle pretty much stayed in tune with only having to move the tuner a very little bit for what I think we now know is temperature/ humidity changes. I guess it depends on how long a moment is, eh?
 
Pete Wass said:
these forums over the past couple of years and has been paying attention to what others have experienced realize what you said is true. It appears to me that the 30 BR may be somewhat of an exception. I have heard a couple of people say that they never move their tuner once they tune the load they are using in. As I recall from the past when I shot RF and had tuners, once I found the tune for a certain lot of ammo the rifle pretty much stayed in tune with only having to move the tuner a very little bit for what I think we now know is temperature/ humidity changes. I guess it depends on how long a moment is, eh?
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One thing to consider Pete, is that a 30 cal of the same profile does not have as much mass and therefore does not have as much momentum to arrest.
 
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