Question for score shooters?

[B.Larson]

Smaller targets

I can't see how making the target smaller would change anything. UBR's targets are smaller in relation to bullet size than the IBS/NBRSA targets and we still have ties. Smaller targets would just mean fewer x's and 10's. You would still have ties. As has been mentioned shoot off's would mean longer matches and I'm pretty sure that I would get complaints as match director if we had to keep folks from picking up their flags and leaving. The Creedmore rule still looks like the best option from my POV.

Rick

you just answered your own question........by saying " Smaller targets would just mean fewer x's and 10's." it`s proven..... smaller targets reduce ties..... not always eliminate..
and in most shooting disciplines ties are settled by shoot-offs..... it`s part of the game....

bill

 

[glp]

Guns

It does seem to me the ten ring is big when 33 out of 45 shoot 250's at the national at 100 yds. You would think that with guns that shoot in the zeros the target would be smaller than a 1/2" then maybe there would not be so many ties? A .5 minute ten ring at 100 yds. and a .7 minute ten ring at a 1000 yds. with 10 times the conditions deal with and you can't see the holes or go back to the sighter..... and yes, i shot both....... jim O'Hara

and the shooter sometimes shoot zero's (if you try and place one bullet hole placement together with the other 4 on the score target and estimate its group size), but this is score shooting. It's an accuracy game. What's wrong with 33 out of 45 vfs shooters shooting 250? Did you notice that no one shot a 25X? The 100/200 yard agg is about shooting a 500 and then as many Xs as you can. Accuracy and having to shoot at 5 separate dots per target is the game. When you think about it score shooting is a very unforgiving game. Miss one point and you are, generally, out of the top spots. There is no ability to come back from a dropped point. In group you can shoot a .3 something and then shoot several zeros or low teens and be back in the running.

The tie at 100 yds was easily broken via the Creedmore system. The whole game worked as it should. Shoot UBR if you want a smaller target or caliber neutral scoring or whatever they do.

 

[Dick Grosbier]

It does seem to me the ten ring is big when 33 out of 45 shoot 250's at the national at 100 yds. You would think that with guns that shoot in the zeros the target would be smaller than a 1/2" then maybe there would not be so many ties? A .5 minute ten ring at 100 yds. and a .7 minute ten ring at a 1000 yds. with 10 times the conditions deal with and you can't see the holes or go back to the sighter..... and yes, i shot both....... jim O'Hara

Everybody should shoot 250 at 100, that is the easy part you have to get 21 or 22x to be in the hunt. The reality is nothing will change on the target until the shooters get good enough to shoot 250- 25x all the time. in the last 5 years and around 500 matches only 6 people have shot 25x according to records committee . Many others were reported as range scored 250-25x but if they do not clear scrutinization of the records committee it does not count for points or records . And once again I reiterate changing the target will hurt the 6X shooter shooters, This is there game after all Varmint rifles were not even allowed to shoot in Hunter class until 1982. I know at least one long time Hunter shooter who is still very pissed of about the addition of the two sighter bulls on the sighter target, While they are great for VFS shooters, He says they mess up the sight picture for us.
Dick Grosbierr

 

[Eddie Harren]

Hunter Class

Everything that has been done to "fix" the hunter Class, over the last 15 years, has only resulted in breaking it further.

 

[jim1K]

Point is with a 6 power it is challenging, but with VFS. is an other story .500 plus .308 will make a ten. 24 X's and a 9 won't get you a thing, with a smaller target..... jim

 

[MRL]

I always thought that VFS was about the X count. You need to shoot a 250 to get in the game, but you win or lose on X count.

 

[Greyfox]

you just answered your own question........by saying " Smaller targets would just mean fewer x's and 10's." it`s proven..... smaller targets reduce ties..... not always eliminate..
and in most shooting disciplines ties are settled by shoot-offs..... it`s part of the game....

bill

Surely wisdom shall perish with thee. So, where do you shoot score?

Rick

 

[Jerry Reisdorff]

Again don't try to fix what isn't Broke.

Surely wisdom shall perish with thee. So, where do you shoot score?

Rick

Very few places on the West cost (none in Az) Phoenix wont even consider it... - most anywhere on the east coast.

Also, why try to fix VFS it doesn't need fix- n - and it is what attracts new shooters to BR game. 100yd is the best way to teach new shooter to read flags in competition and still enjoy shooting the game. FairFax was a great place with great people to help you out.

Again don't try to fix what doesn't need it. )chill(

JR

 

[Jim Pag]

Very few places on the West cost (none in Az) Phoenix wont even consider it... - most anywhere on the east coast.

Also, why try to fix VFS it doesn't need fix- n - and it is what attracts new shooters to BR game. 100yd is the best way to teach new shooter to read flags in competition and still enjoy shooting the game. FairFax was a great place with great people to help you out.

Again don't try to fix what doesn't need it. )chill(

JR

The trouble is Jerry the SR score or group is dying. This sport is not attracting new shooters. I'm not saying it is because of one thing or a few things. It is expensive for one, and if your young or not retired, it is difficult to travel 500 miles for a shoot, only to have to drive back and go to work the next day. On the other hand in the IBS anyway, the 600 & 1000 yard shoots are growing in numbers every year.

 

[jim1K]

The trouble is Jerry the SR score or group is dying. This sport is not attracting new shooters. I'm not saying it is because of one thing or a few things. It is expensive for one, and if your young or not retired, it is difficult to travel 500 miles for a shoot, only to have to drive back and go to work the next day. On the other hand in the IBS anyway, the 600 & 1000 yard shoots are growing in numbers every year.

Jim, !000 yds. is being fixed ??? because of falling numbers. You are right, it is a lot of work. So that takes the young away unless dad is doing it all. The expense is very high and travel is a killer.
Maybe you only need the dot in the middle if the huge ten ring doesn't mean anything, An .808 minute of angle to get a 10 at a 100 yds. and a .7338 minute of angle to get a 10 at a 1000. No wonder they don't want to change it...... jim

 

[glp]

I don't agree

that it is dying. Its one of those games that requires time, money and dedication. In this day and age there are a lot of other things that compete for time not to mention family. Look at golf. It was a high flying game not too many years ago. A proliferation of courses coupled with a graying population has spelled trouble for rounds played.

Like a lot of other things, benchrest ebbs and then they flows over time. BR, whether group or score, is an esoteric adventure. Numbers will always be small. For a while numbers will be down, then new shooters will come along. Just the nature of the game I guess.

 

[pablo]

Hunter Class Popularity

In my opinion Hunter class would be more popular and appealing to younger shooters if it required a factory action--no customs--and the designation of a few stocks and scopes that could be used. This would keep costs down and help newcomers show up, especially if they could buy an off the shelf rifle that would get them competitive or close to it. When the class was first created a guy could be competitive with a bedded, off the shelf 700 BDL Varminter in 308, oh, with a trigger job. Nowadays you'd be competing for last place with that setup.

Most guys that have been in the game long term have forgotten what they paid for all their gear. We need to reduce the barriers for entry to the sport, keeping equipment cost down would have to help.

 

[Eddie Harren]

Hunter Class

Pablo, I agree. The allowance of custom actions and, doing away with the requirement that triggers have safeties were just 2 of the "fixes" that were implemented that did nothing to help the class.

A lot of present day VFS shooters talk about getting into the Hunter class but few stay with it.

 

[jackie schmidt]

Pablo, I agree. The allowance of custom actions and, doing away with the requirement that triggers have safeties were just 2 of the "fixes" that were implemented that did nothing to help the class.

A lot of present day VFS shooters talk about getting into the Hunter class but few stay with it.

I shot HBR back in the '90's, when Louisianna had a strong program, including the Trans Continental League, where clubs over the Country competed against each other in sort of a "postal match" format.

I quit mainly because of the single defining factor, the 6x scope. That is not going to change.

 

[Eddie Harren]

Hunter Class

"I quit mainly because of the single defining factor, the 6x scope. That is not going to change."


Nor should it.

 

[jackie schmidt]

"I quit mainly because of the single defining factor, the 6x scope. That is not going to change."


Nor should it.

Agreed

 

[Randy Jarvais]

Here is my argument.

I am new to Htr class by most standards. When this season concludes, I will have competed in the class for 2.5 years. I do know quite a bit of the history though as I travel with a long time Htr shooter. Mr. Harren is not the only long time Htr shooter bemoaning the allowance of custom actions as the beast that spoiled the Htr class. But I have a problem with that opinion and here is my take. I ask, what part on a Htr rifle is a factory part??? Nothing! The barrel is custom as is the trigger. The stock is not factory nor is the scope (most have to have Leupold or others customize a 6x scope to make it useful. We allow custom scope bases, freeze the scope, and on and on we go. If I buy a Remington for an action, I have to pay extra to have it remedied for use. I would rather give my money to a custom action company that is catering to our sport. When was the last time Remington did something for us? With a custom, you end up with a better product and you support the people supporting us. The resale value is also higher with a custom action. Custom actions didn't spoil the class, in my opinion, and I would not have undertaking the journey if I had to use a Remington. Besides, what constitutes a custom vs a factory action. Isn't that where the grey area first presented the bridge to custom actions??

The Htr class is aging and new shooters would rather shoot VFS where they can see and hit the tiny dot. Only with repeated success, or maybe failure, does one venture to a different path, ie. Htr class. VFS is what changed the numbers in Htr class, not custom actions.

 

[Dick Grosbier]

Besides, what constitutes a custom vs a factory action. Isn't that where the grey area first presented the bridge to custom actions??

No,
I agree with most things Randy says. But I never heard any question of what is custom vs factory in the discussion on allowing custom actions.

VFS is what changed the numbers in Htr class, not custom actions.

On this I totally agree.

 

[Pete Wass]

If I had it all to do over again

The only thing I would do different is not to fool around with trying to shoot VFS. I liked HBR from the first match I shot and never tired of it. Even now, I feel more comfortable shooting a 7.5 lb. 6.5X scoped Rimfire gun than I do a 10.5 LB, unlimited magnification. I seem to be able to process the 6X hold offs better, for some unknown reason.

I had some great HBR rifles and the only one I regret selling was the Blue gun to Francis B. That one was the best of them, from my feeble memory anyway.

It has been my observation that a number of great VFS shooters who have tried HBR have done pretty well at it so it isn't a matter of not being able to see with a 6X scope, in my view. I believe it's the difficulty of shooting 250's that keeps people away. Or not being able to feel good often enough.

6X shooting is THE TRUE challenge in Benchrest. All else pales.

I still have my original Rem 700 actioned rifle. Mebby I'll shoot a few matches next year.

Pete

 

[Randy Jarvais]

Dick, let the truth be known.

Dick G., was there any discussion similar to what follows as this is what was told to me? It was some time ago so memory is what it is. With that being said, I was told that the topic of custom actions centered around the notion of just what constituted a custom action versus a factory action. It came down to how the actions were produced and the quantity. Someone used the argument that some 'custom' companies were "mass" producing enough actions to be considered a factory. As there were no magic production number to be considered a factory action, no one could justify excluding these "factory" custom actions. I know not when custom actions were allowed in Htr class or when the above topic was discussed, or where for that matter. It is simply what I remember being told.

Dick, what was the discussion and why were custom actions allowed?