I think you will need a bolt, or change the extractor ?? jim
Question for score shooters?
- Thread starter Jim Pag
- Start date
I think you will need a bolt, or change the extractor ?? jim
jackie schmidt
New member
The easiest way you can make a 2 lug coned bolt work as a drop port is to install a Sako Extractor so it is on the bottom between the lugs when the bolt is open. The drawback is the extractor will be in line with the left raceway.
I did this to my Farley Right/Left. Works great. I ignore the hazard.
Stiller Drop Ports use a Remington style extractor.
Borden does now have a coned bolt drop port extractor that is totally protected. I don't know if they can retrofit a regular bolt, though.
I did this to my Farley Right/Left. Works great. I ignore the hazard.
Stiller Drop Ports use a Remington style extractor.
Borden does now have a coned bolt drop port extractor that is totally protected. I don't know if they can retrofit a regular bolt, though.
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David Apple
Member
What is the purpose of this change?
Also, by reading #5 I would say that tuners are not permitted.
jackie schmidt
New member
What is the purpose of this change?
Also, by reading #5 I would say that tuners are not permitted.
Go to the IBS Downloads, read back up a ways in the adoption of tuner rule. It states that the intention of the rule is that tuners are allowed in all classes.
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Randy Jarvais
New member
Check group rules for tuner
David, I questioned the use of tuners in Htr class as well, but someone pointed me to the group rules to which it states as Jackie has pointed out. The language in the score section that you mention should have been modified/deleted and/or the language in the group section should have been reiterated in the score section concerning tuners in all classes.
David, I questioned the use of tuners in Htr class as well, but someone pointed me to the group rules to which it states as Jackie has pointed out. The language in the score section that you mention should have been modified/deleted and/or the language in the group section should have been reiterated in the score section concerning tuners in all classes.
David Apple
Member
Thanks for the clarification....like looking at a bowl of spaghetti.
I am not an engineer nor a mathematician.... but I want to think having a legal cutout for the floor plate reduces the structural integrity of the action by maybe 20%???
Besides the percieved flooding of the 6 power ranks by new shooters, what is the benefit of the proposed amendment???
I am not an engineer nor a mathematician.... but I want to think having a legal cutout for the floor plate reduces the structural integrity of the action by maybe 20%???
Besides the percieved flooding of the 6 power ranks by new shooters, what is the benefit of the proposed amendment???
R.G. Robinett
"That'll never work."
"Different strokes . . ."
Interesting reading.
Of course, when it comes to Hunter Class, I am very opinionated regarding actions; cartridges; etc. The only attributes that matter, in order of import, as pointed out above: 6x scope magnification; 10 Lb. weight limit; 2.25" forearm width.
The Rem/factory vs. custom action argument just doesn't hold up: when I was fortunate enough to win the 200Yd. and GRAND Aggs, at the Y2K NBRSA Hunter Nationals (103 competitors - the largest attendance ever), I was one of ONLY three individuals using a Remington action based rifle. Thus ended my belief that custom action were going to, "kill" the Hunter Class! I still own Rem. actioned rigs, which are every bit a capable as my Borden/BAT actioned rigs - but after the truing, they still don't operate as nicely, and are not worth any more than B4 the costly alterations. Once a year, I compete with one of the old Rems. - and marvel at how SLOW it is to operate, but how ell it shoots!
At risk of initiating a NBRSA vs. IBS debate, both organizations have limited the growth potential of Benchrest Score shooting - the rank-and-file Hunter shooters, via phobic beliefs, helping to keep the lid on tight. As evidenced of late - beginning in 2013 - case capacity hasn't done much for those who have chosen to go small: that year, Greg Swezey won the NBRSA Mid-Continent Regional VfS title, hosted at Mill Creek, in conjunction with the NBRSA Hunter Nationals, shooting a 30x47 chambered VfS rig, dominating every other cartridge on the line, inculiding the PPCs. IN the Hunter Class, the puny cases are NOT dominating the "old school" cartridges. Shooters win and losers whine.
Meanwhile, the IBS has dropped the ball, by, allowing clubs hosting their National Championship to run the Hunter and VfS classes simultaneously, thus causing people to choose between shooting either VfS, or, Hunter, as opposed to shooting both. Most will opt for the easier route. Precious few will rotate, shooting two relays per day, while rotating and alternating between shooting a ten pound, 6x scoped Hunter rig and a 13.5# HV rig! The difference between Hunter and Vt Hunter does not exist - it's simply the same gun, with a different case capacity.
Yes, it has been done, by Dean Breeden, with success, but that format is brutal, and few can/will muster the effort - they'll simply choose to shoot a bigger rig and more magnification. One cannot argue with the desires of the masses, and the IBS has failed to require a one gun, one yardage per day National Championship format - an egregious error. When, my home Club, Boone Valley Ike's hosted to 2009 IBS Score Nationals, and opted to run this one gun, one yardage per day format, many people grumbled - I never "got" that" - we had the largest Hunter participation at an IBS Championship in many a year. The IBS [membership] should straighten this out: National Championship format = one gun, one yardage per day.
A previous post, by Apollo, above, hints at the power of the TWO GUN - it is catching on. It IS a GREAT format - and a REAL TWO GUN, as in completely different rifles.
The following is incorrect:
"Dick Grosbier
Originally Posted by Wilbur 
Randy Robinette would know best so if he says anything on the matter please listen.!
Randy has reportedly stated if IBS passes this rule he will petition NBRSA to take same course. (2nd hand information admittedly)
Until just now, I have been completely ignorant of this proposal. I will state, that, for at least 25 years, I have believed that magazine cuts/slots/case capacity/caliber, are meaningless, and only add to the cost of an action, and or, establish barriers which limit participation. I have been acused of wanting to destroy both Hunter Class, and Group shooting - funny - in this neighborhood, compared to the "old days", as rules have become less phobic and more accommodating, ALL BR disciplines have grown.
Yep, as usual, I'm rambling - I really like this post, by Dean We need to KISS it
The Hunter class rules should be simplified. We need to KISS it. KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID. I believe we only need 3 simple rules.
1. A 6x scope.
2. Rifle weight at 10 pounds or less.
3. 2.25 width stock.
SIMPLE RULES WORK BETTER. Less arguments.
Regardless of sanctioning body, BR is all about developing extreme accuracy and precision: that's what I've always believed, and never have I been a supporter/advocate of limiting case capacity, or caliber, in any class/discipline, I do believe in differing classes of rifles, based upon weight and scope (sighting) restrictions. Keep 'em ON the X! RG
Interesting reading.
Of course, when it comes to Hunter Class, I am very opinionated regarding actions; cartridges; etc. The only attributes that matter, in order of import, as pointed out above: 6x scope magnification; 10 Lb. weight limit; 2.25" forearm width.
The Rem/factory vs. custom action argument just doesn't hold up: when I was fortunate enough to win the 200Yd. and GRAND Aggs, at the Y2K NBRSA Hunter Nationals (103 competitors - the largest attendance ever), I was one of ONLY three individuals using a Remington action based rifle. Thus ended my belief that custom action were going to, "kill" the Hunter Class!
I still own Rem. actioned rigs, which are every bit a capable as my Borden/BAT actioned rigs - but after the truing, they still don't operate as nicely, and are not worth any more than B4 the costly alterations. Once a year, I compete with one of the old Rems. - and marvel at how SLOW it is to operate, but how ell it shoots! At risk of initiating a NBRSA vs. IBS debate, both organizations have limited the growth potential of Benchrest Score shooting - the rank-and-file Hunter shooters, via phobic beliefs, helping to keep the lid on tight. As evidenced of late - beginning in 2013 - case capacity hasn't done much for those who have chosen to go small: that year, Greg Swezey won the NBRSA Mid-Continent Regional VfS title, hosted at Mill Creek, in conjunction with the NBRSA Hunter Nationals, shooting a 30x47 chambered VfS rig, dominating every other cartridge on the line, inculiding the PPCs.
IN the Hunter Class, the puny cases are NOT dominating the "old school" cartridges. Shooters win and losers whine.Meanwhile, the IBS has dropped the ball, by, allowing clubs hosting their National Championship to run the Hunter and VfS classes simultaneously, thus causing people to choose between shooting either VfS, or, Hunter, as opposed to shooting both. Most will opt for the easier route. Precious few will rotate, shooting two relays per day, while rotating and alternating between shooting a ten pound, 6x scoped Hunter rig and a 13.5# HV rig!
The difference between Hunter and Vt Hunter does not exist - it's simply the same gun, with a different case capacity.Yes, it has been done, by Dean Breeden, with success, but that format is brutal, and few can/will muster the effort - they'll simply choose to shoot a bigger rig and more magnification. One cannot argue with the desires of the masses, and the IBS has failed to require a one gun, one yardage per day National Championship format - an egregious error. When, my home Club, Boone Valley Ike's hosted to 2009 IBS Score Nationals, and opted to run this one gun, one yardage per day format, many people grumbled - I never "got" that" - we had the largest Hunter participation at an IBS Championship in many a year. The IBS [membership] should straighten this out: National Championship format = one gun, one yardage per day.
A previous post, by Apollo, above, hints at the power of the TWO GUN - it is catching on. It IS a GREAT format - and a REAL TWO GUN, as in completely different rifles.
The following is incorrect:
"Dick Grosbier
Randy Robinette would know best so if he says anything on the matter please listen.!
Randy has reportedly stated if IBS passes this rule he will petition NBRSA to take same course. (2nd hand information admittedly)
Until just now, I have been completely ignorant of this proposal. I will state, that, for at least 25 years, I have believed that magazine cuts/slots/case capacity/caliber, are meaningless, and only add to the cost of an action, and or, establish barriers which limit participation. I have been acused of wanting to destroy both Hunter Class, and Group shooting - funny - in this neighborhood, compared to the "old days", as rules have become less phobic and more accommodating, ALL BR disciplines have grown.
Yep, as usual, I'm rambling - I really like this post, by Dean We need to KISS it
The Hunter class rules should be simplified. We need to KISS it. KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID. I believe we only need 3 simple rules.
1. A 6x scope.
2. Rifle weight at 10 pounds or less.
3. 2.25 width stock.
SIMPLE RULES WORK BETTER. Less arguments.
Regardless of sanctioning body, BR is all about developing extreme accuracy and precision: that's what I've always believed, and never have I been a supporter/advocate of limiting case capacity, or caliber, in any class/discipline, I do believe in differing classes of rifles, based upon weight and scope (sighting) restrictions. Keep 'em ON the X! RG
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jackie schmidt
New member
Randy, I am a little behind on some of this. I thought the IBS had also dropped the minimum case requirement for HBR like the NBRSA has. Apparently not.
In my opinion, that would go a long way in simplifying things. Keep the barrel taper rule, keep the 6x scope, and the 2 1/4 forearm width, and the 10 lb weight.
Just an opinion from an outsider looking in.
In my opinion, that would go a long way in simplifying things. Keep the barrel taper rule, keep the 6x scope, and the 2 1/4 forearm width, and the 10 lb weight.
Just an opinion from an outsider looking in.
The IBS did
by eliminating the separate varmint hunter class. Now, there is a varmint hunter rifle ONLY for records. It can have a less than 30-30 water capacity(45 grains) case. However, it shoots head to head with a true HUNTER class rifle for IBS awards and PS points(the PS points thing has been the case for as long as I remember). No more separate varmint hunter class, except for IBS records establishment. The only thing that differentiates the two is the case capacity, as it has always.
by eliminating the separate varmint hunter class. Now, there is a varmint hunter rifle ONLY for records. It can have a less than 30-30 water capacity(45 grains) case. However, it shoots head to head with a true HUNTER class rifle for IBS awards and PS points(the PS points thing has been the case for as long as I remember). No more separate varmint hunter class, except for IBS records establishment. The only thing that differentiates the two is the case capacity, as it has always.
Randy Jarvais
New member
Just to add
The Hunter classification is made up of two classes of rifles, htr and vh, similar to the VFS classification has two, LVS and HVS. Clear as mud, right!
The Hunter classification is made up of two classes of rifles, htr and vh, similar to the VFS classification has two, LVS and HVS. Clear as mud, right!
jackie schmidt
New member
JMHO, but I think the NBRSA has a better system with two classes for Score, HBR and VFS.
Sometimes these "Shooter of the Year" contests turn into attendance awards.
Sometimes these "Shooter of the Year" contests turn into attendance awards.
Eddie Harren
Member
IBS Score Shooter of the Year
This is another portion of the IBS that a few new shooters, who knew very little about the history of the program but, had misguided opinions of how the program was managed, decided needed fixing and set about to totally wreck the program. Again, fixing something until it is more broken.
This is another portion of the IBS that a few new shooters, who knew very little about the history of the program but, had misguided opinions of how the program was managed, decided needed fixing and set about to totally wreck the program. Again, fixing something until it is more broken.
D
Daryl
Guest
I.b.s.
Jim's original thread was asking about Creedmore vs Shot Off and you see were it has degraded too.
If you type IBS into any internet browser you will come up with Irritable Bowel Syndrome and International Benchrest Shooters. They are synonymous.
They just do not know which came first.
Dean is also right. KISS always works best. But the Keep It Simple Stupid, is the Stupid Us or IBS rules
Jim's original thread was asking about Creedmore vs Shot Off and you see were it has degraded too.
If you type IBS into any internet browser you will come up with Irritable Bowel Syndrome and International Benchrest Shooters. They are synonymous.
They just do not know which came first.
Dean is also right. KISS always works best. But the Keep It Simple Stupid, is the Stupid Us or IBS rules
Well Francis, I think that has changed a little bit as far as the Northeast thing goes. Now a day, people from the Northeast have to travel down south if they are chasing SSOY points. There are so many state shoots down south, people who use to travel up to the northeast can just stay down there and shoot. Since I started in 2013, the attendance for some of our state shoots up here borders on being pathetic. The only place that I can think of that really draws a good number of shooters is the Sulphur Springs 100 yard matches in PA. Jesus most of the time they get between 27-34 shooters. Hell is we get 25 at a state match that's doing good. On top of it all I get bored shooting against the same shooters week after week. They are a great bunch of people that I shoot with all the time, I just need to shoot against some different people once in a while. That's why I broke down and shot the Nationals 2 weeks ago. People who know me know that I hate that full rotation bullsht with a passion. I'd rather shoot on the worst bench all weekend over my own flags and probes than to rotate. Whoever came up with that idea should be shot. Oh ya, that was done so all the whiners wouldn't cry because little Johnny has the honey hole bench all weekend.
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Eddie Harren
Member
Ibs
F, it was not you. It was mostly a new shooter who ran his mouth, as he is still doing, and criticized the folks that were running the SSOY program. He has made a career out of interfering and complaining while never offering to step up and run anything. When I was in the military we called them WIMPS. Weak Immature Malingering P------s!
F, it was not you. It was mostly a new shooter who ran his mouth, as he is still doing, and criticized the folks that were running the SSOY program. He has made a career out of interfering and complaining while never offering to step up and run anything. When I was in the military we called them WIMPS. Weak Immature Malingering P------s!
Concerning bench rotation, there are two distinct groups. One that prefers to rotate benches and one that does not. Bench rotation does one thing for sure...it prevents folks from "believing" someone stacked the deck and got the best bench. I believe that's the biggest reason for rotation...may be the only reason.
A long, long time ago, the Southeast Region began bench rotation at every match. The item was voted unanimously at a previous regional meeting. Several folks, older folks, showed up at the first match, realized that bench rotation was in effect, and simply left for home. That was my first realization that you really needed to think about what you were doing because there might be others that just can't do what you can do...for whatever reason.
Truth is, and I say this from experience, if you went back to the rules in existence 25 years ago you would have a better set of rules and a better game.
A long, long time ago, the Southeast Region began bench rotation at every match. The item was voted unanimously at a previous regional meeting. Several folks, older folks, showed up at the first match, realized that bench rotation was in effect, and simply left for home. That was my first realization that you really needed to think about what you were doing because there might be others that just can't do what you can do...for whatever reason.
Truth is, and I say this from experience, if you went back to the rules in existence 25 years ago you would have a better set of rules and a better game.
Eddie Harren
Member
Rules
"Truth is, and I say this from experience, if you went back to the rules in existence 25 years ago you would have a better set of rules and a better game."
Plus 10!
"Truth is, and I say this from experience, if you went back to the rules in existence 25 years ago you would have a better set of rules and a better game."
Plus 10!
jackie schmidt
New member
Wilbur, there are a few ranges in the Gulf Coast Region that do have "honey holes", Tomball and Denton to be specific. The good benches are 1,2,and 3. If nobody wants to rotate, I will be more than glad to shoot off of those Benches all week end.
Often, we simply will not shoot those benches, and rotate between yardages if anybody wants to.
Midland, Seymore, Walker County, and New Braunfels are pretty much neutral.
At Lake Charles, where they do not shoot group, if you get stuck over on Bench 1 or 2 by the burm, , you are pretty much screwed, especially at 200 yards. It's the luck of the draw.
Dave Short
New member
South Creek
South Creek in northern PA is an example of a range that is kind of sweet on one end and really awful on the other. I can remember full rotations there for state (not national) championship matches. It was bad enough on the high-numbered end that you pretty much Tiptoed through hoping to avoid a trainwreck. It was like the surface of the moon from 100 to 200. There were very few flags set out there, and generally none on the high end. But despite all of that I always enjoyed shooting there. The crowd gathered there made for a somewhat laid back atmosphere while still keeping the level of competition high. I understand and agree that full rotation is a deal breaker for those with physical disabilities, and I wouldn't encourage anyone in that situation to endure such a situation. But for me, I see it as no different than 7 minute score matches for example.....as long as everyone in my class is shooting under the same rules I'm fine with it.
Dave
South Creek in northern PA is an example of a range that is kind of sweet on one end and really awful on the other. I can remember full rotations there for state (not national) championship matches. It was bad enough on the high-numbered end that you pretty much Tiptoed through hoping to avoid a trainwreck. It was like the surface of the moon from 100 to 200. There were very few flags set out there, and generally none on the high end. But despite all of that I always enjoyed shooting there. The crowd gathered there made for a somewhat laid back atmosphere while still keeping the level of competition high. I understand and agree that full rotation is a deal breaker for those with physical disabilities, and I wouldn't encourage anyone in that situation to endure such a situation. But for me, I see it as no different than 7 minute score matches for example.....as long as everyone in my class is shooting under the same rules I'm fine with it.
Dave