IBS bolts-out rule

IBS bolts out rule

Ok do you feel better now. I was a New guy" Unsupervised.
 
Edwin

Edwin D said:
jerry,

I normally do not defend "sleeze bag" attorneys, HOWEVER they(sleeze bag attorneys) do not sit on the JURY and pass sentence.

That duty, no pun intended, is left up to YOU, thge American citizens(peers).
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jury's are 12 in number. In an "accidental" shooting at the range situation, do you suppose the sleeze bag plaintiff attorney might explore the extent of safeguards that the sanctioning body has mandated? Hindsight is always 20/20, so its up to the sanctioning body to anticipate the scrutiny their event will come under AFTER a fatal range shooting....BEFORE it ever happens. I'm not able to grasp the reason why some do not see this for what it is...protection of our sport. I'm glad the IBS did what it did, I know exactly why they did it, and I support it. If others want to gamble with fate, that is their choice.

Regarding a post above and lack of new shooter supervision, we all want new shooters, right? Rather than make the person who brings a new shooter totally responsible for their action(of course they have to make sure the new shooter understands the safety rules), its great the sanctioning body has safeguards in place to help the mentors. We are our own enemy, IF we fail to anticipate and set up rules and procedures to offset the inevitable human failings and mistakes that creep into any activity. Thank God for forward thinking people!
 
To be 100% safe, why don't we all buy pop guns and shoot corks!!

What? Someone choked on a cork??? Well, so much for that idea.



Who coined the saying, the enemy is us?? Pogo Possum, that's who.
 
The words "for your safety" is an hypothesis created by a self serving angel to hook a free spirit to his plow.
The "herd" is afraid of "free spirits". The only engine of progress in the universe are "free spirits". (my words) joe :)
 
For the most part it is the "Depends" :eek:wearing crowd that object to the rule---one of the best things that has been done. NBRSA will not be far behind--all it takes is one lawsuit!!!

Same people who pitched a wall eyed Boo Hoo fit on the remain seated rule while the line is hot during a relay.. Too bad:D!!
 
Just wondering

how an experienced Benchrest shooter would ever show up at a match not knowing where there bump or "jam" length is? Finding these things out at a match is a darn poor place to be groping aroung trying to be competative from my limited 10 or 11 years of experience.

Acually, there were at least two incidents that brought about the "Safety Meeting", one of them involving a person who might not have understood or heard very well. I have seen some dumb stuff done at matches over the years and the Bolts Out rule is a darn good one. It Idiot Proofs, as much as possible the sport.

I have spent most of the month here in Florida roaming around. I have shot at three ranges while visiting here. Two of those ranges are run for the General Public and have a system whereby the line is hot for 10 minutes and then cold for 5. No handeling of guns or ammo during the 5 of cold so, a BR shooter can not sit behind their rifle and align flags during cold nor can they go down range during hot; not that they would want to. Pain in the Butt? indeed but they must accomodate Joe Six Pack or as one range officer called them, Knuckle Draggers. Needless to say, it wasn't much fun or use for me to shoot at either of those ranges. Nobody asked what my experience was or who I was, not that who I am means a whole lot. The one range I was at is a Membership only situation and not open to the public. My experience and persoange didn't matter there either nor do I blame them. They have liability issues to address and they must do what they must.

It appers the prospect for testing and practice in Florida for a visiting BR shooter is practically non-existant and is very disapointing as I had hoped to plan where I would winter in the future around the location of a good range. Guess the only hope is to buy a piece of land big enough to shoot on as the Hostess at a continental breakfast in one of our Motels suggested. She said that is what her Boyfriend did.

So, you think Bolts Out is a hastle do ya? WELLLLLL - - - - - - -
 
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Bolts out. Good idea.
Joe six pack on the range. BAD idea.
2 yrs ago. At a MI State Range. Run by the DNR.
I saw 2 guys ejected. They were told, don't go across, the yellow line. At the target change.
The second guy had his stuff thrown across the fence. The Officer had to put his hand on his gun. To get his point across.
I found a private range.
And I still see stupid stuff.:eek:
Tim
 
So how many dangerous acts have you witnessed at a match?

I can think of two.
1. firing before the commence fire, or more correct Commence (BANG) fire.
2. A cleaning rod left in the barrel at the line, the owner saw it during the rules being announced. I was seated beside him and I had not noticed it.
 
We can cry all we

want about extra dumb safety rules. I dont know how many times in the matches I have ran that I have seen some pretty stupid things done. I think the IBS rule is well within reason. So far as any rules go, the match director can enforce any rule they want that does not violate any sanction rule. I like the bolt waving idea. I also like the safety meeting. There are quite a few new shooters in our area that may need a little education besides some hearsay that they get during practice. There are also a few older shooters that may need some reminding. Every match I call I have to remind someone that the loaded round does not go into the gun at the insert bolt command. At our last club match at least 3 people shot their rifles without a commence fire command because the new equipment on the PA system was having problems. As shooters, WE NEED TO PAY ATTENTION, MAKE SURE WE ARE SAFE AND PROFESSIONAL. Its already too easy to make our life hard by the anti-gun do gooders.

I would much rather be a little inconvenienced and safe then explain to someones kids or wife how their dad/husband was shot by someone who didnt understand or follow our rules.
 
I do virtually all of my shooting with a .262 neck 6PPC that conforms to the rules that define a sporter. I do all of my loading at the range, and do a fair amount of experimenting with loads, including different powders and bullets. I do not live anywhere near red mist alley, and I have to tell you that the idea we are all smarter and safer than the average shooter is more than a bit arrogant and not true. Furthermore, I have under my belt more than a few years building and helping to run a large public range. I have written range rules and enforced them, and stood, for free (actually at some cost to me) at the head of the "jointly and severally" line. Many shooter have not. You don't write rules for the 99%. You write them for the 1%, and if you are smart, you are inflexible about their enforcement, lest a culture of general laxity develop, leading to a preventable "accident". Some of us have taken our turn in the barrel so that the number of voters who have actual hands on experience with firearms might continue to be politically significant, and so that in an increasingly urban society the public is afforded the opportunity to participate in the ongoing tradition that the second amendment was written to protect. Many of us lack this experience, and therefore don't understand that many times the shooters that are the biggest pain in the ass about range safety rules are those of long experience who have not taken on the responsibility of running a facility or formulating or enforcing rules that have as their purpose keeping shooters safe and a range in continuing operation. They should try it some time. It might be a learning experience.

As to the advisability of setting up dies by feel, giving blanket advice to do so makes an assumption as to the compatibility of the die and the chamber, that may not be the case, and when it is not the case, will invariably lead to excessive shoulder bump. This is a simple concept, but evidently not universally understood, even on this board. I check bump with a gauge and a dial caliper, and can see no reason to do otherwise. It is much quicker than stripping and reassembling a bolt. If the desired bolt feel cannot be achieved within a suitable range of shoulder bump, a different die is needed for that chamber, and no amount of adjusting will solve the problem.
 
Boss Hoss 540 said:
For the most part it is the "Depends" :eek:wearing crowd that object to the rule---one of the best things that has been done. NBRSA will not be far behind--all it takes is one lawsuit!!!

Same people who pitched a wall eyed Boo Hoo fit on the remain seated rule while the line is hot during a relay.. Too bad:D!!
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The rule we are discussing here is a rule for a sanctioned match operated by professionals.

Just as in the days of CB radios, Jimmy Carter instituted a 55 mph National speed limit and what happened? Almost everyone got their selves a CB and ignored the 55 mph law. Why? It was a dumb law. The average American is smart enough to understand useful from dumb and stupid.

Not allowing a STRIPPED bolt in an action to check setup is a dumb rule. Adding more dumb rules just cause most folks to ignore other rules as well. Some of the rules that may be important to safety.

Speaking of CB radios I notice Boss Hogg is back. Get out and shoot in some of the big shoots and see where I'm coming from. Like I told you in an earlier thread, Hogg, I wear Serenity not Depends.
 
Boyd Allen said:
II do not live anywhere near red mist alley, and I have to tell you that the idea we are all smarter and safer than the average shooter is more than a bit arrogant and not true. Furthermore, I have under my belt more than a few years building and helping to run a large public range. I have written range rules and enforced them, and stood, for free (actually at some cost to me) at the head of the "jointly and severally" line. Many shooter have not.


As to the advisability of setting up dies by feel, giving blanket advice to do so makes an assumption as to the compatibility of the die and the chamber, that may not be the case, and when it is not the case, will invariably lead to excessive shoulder bump. This is a simple concept, but evidently not universally understood, even on this board. I check bump with a gauge and a dial caliper, and can see no reason to do otherwise. It is much quicker than stripping and reassembling a bolt. If the desired bolt feel cannot be achieved within a suitable range of shoulder bump, a different die is needed for that chamber, and no amount of adjusting will solve the problem.
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While we are crowing here, in 1975 I joined a local gun club that had 28 paying members. I was put in charge if range design and construction. This involved writing many rules and other essential duties as well as building 2 200-yard, 20 bench ranges as well as Trap and Skeet fields. When I came off the Board of Directors, 12 years later, this club had over 1200 members and had just bought a second computer to keep up with membership. So to insinuate I don't know much about gun club range building or operation is way off base with reality. The IBS Bolts-Out rule does not apply here, nor does many of the comments being made.

http://www.cherokeerodandgunclub.com/

You are more than welcome to contact this club to verify what I just wrote.


As to "giving advise" to use the chamber to set sizing dies, I did not ADVISE anything. I just explained how I do it. When I am doing this I am using a barrel I chambered I well know the conditions and issues of sizing MY brass. How can a gage made by Lynwood Harrell in Salem Virginia be more accurate than sizing brass that was fired in the chamber I am using for a gage???
 
Pete Wass said:
how an experienced Benchrest shooter would ever show up at a match not knowing where there bump or "jam" length is? Finding these things out at a match is a darn poor place to be groping aroung trying to be competative from my limited 10 or 11 years of experience.


So, you think Bolts Out is a hastle do ya? WELLLLLL - - - - - - -
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OK, one more rant just for Pete.

Pete. come to one of the big shoots and you will see gun trading, barrel trading, gun buying and selling. Big example the Super Shoot. There will be a few DOZEN foreign shooters attending. Most of them will buy guns here to eliminate the hassles of "RULES" that have been put in place to make US SAFE and protect us from ourselves. These Internatonal shooters will be setting up from scratch, so bolts out, is a big impediment.

At the recent Shamrock, Relay 1, Match 1, I was shooting beside one of the INTERNATIONALLY known and long time bench rest shooters, Brady. Brady was shooting a gun he just had bought. Ask him what he had to do to get the gun ready. Brady is Internationally known because he usually teaches some of our foreign visitors the finer points of gun trading and wrist watch buying and selling.

Speaking of the Shamrock, Pete, where were you? We missed you.
 
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Shamrock

Jerry,

I was busy lounging around in Sunny Florida. The Shamrock, for me would have ruined a week of lovely 80+* weather doing something I was not equiped to do and know little about. I would like to experience it some day but not at the expence of interupting my first big vacation to Florida.

With all due respect to how things are done in the Group world, I still think anyone who spends all the time and money they do to go to a big shoot and then buys a strange gun and works up a load for it in the blind is somewhat cavalier about rather or not they might have a shot at winning. Just my thinking as a rookie I guess.

This is my first cloudy day since 3-4-09l guess I will be able o withstand it. :)


Pete
 
Jerry--folks like you who think that they are above any oversight are the exact ones this rule has been enacted to target. Not everyone is capable as our minds tend to lose the cognitive abilities that they once had to go thru the mental processes that enable one to be safe. Others are just not disciplined enough to not have robust safety measures that they must adhere to so the answer is simple for you --- stay home if you don’t like it because it is not going to change period end of discussion. Many have weighed in on this issue and quite frankly your argument has a lot of emotion but no merit so just deal with it – no reason to get so upset because you know what happens when you do—so unless getting all backed up over this is your goal which will require a LOT of fiber to remedy:eek: just smile and accept change gracefully. Keep on venting if ;it makes you feel better however, know that there are rules that are enacted for the safety of everyone including the range owners not just to enrage poor ole Jerry who should be under his own set of rules because he is infallible lol.

Be happy and have some more prunes!:p You know I speak the truth here even if you don't like it.:D
 
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So you want to BR in Florida

Pete Wass said:
how an experienced Benchrest shooter would ever show up at a match not knowing where there bump or "jam" length is? Finding these things out at a match is a darn poor place to be groping aroung trying to be competative from my limited 10 or 11 years of experience.

Acually, there were at least two incidents that brought about the "Safety Meeting", one of them involving a person who might not have understood or heard very well. I have seen some dumb stuff done at matches over the years and the Bolts Out rule is a darn good one. It Idiot Proofs, as much as possible the sport.

I have spent most of the month here in Florida roaming around. I have shot at three ranges while visiting here. Two of those ranges are run for the General Public and have a system whereby the line is hot for 10 minutes and then cold for 5. No handeling of guns or ammo during the 5 of cold so, a BR shooter can not sit behind their rifle and align flags during cold nor can they go down range during hot; not that they would want to. Pain in the Butt? indeed but they must accomodate Joe Six Pack or as one range officer called them, Knuckle Draggers. Needless to say, it wasn't much fun or use for me to shoot at either of those ranges. Nobody asked what my experience was or who I was, not that who I am means a whole lot. The one range I was at is a Membership only situation and not open to the public. My experience and persoange didn't matter there either nor do I blame them. They have liability issues to address and they must do what they must.

It appers the prospect for testing and practice in Florida for a visiting BR shooter is practically non-existant and is very disapointing as I had hoped to plan where I would winter in the future around the location of a good range. Guess the only hope is to buy a piece of land big enough to shoot on as the Hostess at a continental breakfast in one of our Motels suggested. She said that is what her Boyfriend did.

So, you think Bolts Out is a hastle do ya? WELLLLLL - - - - - - -
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Just so serious Benchrest shooters don't get discouraged about coming to Florida during the winter to shoot and test let me assure you that the Manatee Gun club has a very good dedicated BR range 100/200 that is open to all visitiors. We host Southeast Division NBRSA matches every year and shoot some IBS VFS. We have winter residents that shoot with us every year.

Membership is only $100 a year and you can shoot all day Thur.-Sunday. Manatee is just east of Bradenton on the west coast of Florida, come on down and shoot, we have even made a few Yankee friends!

Sorry for being off topic but could not let that pass.
 
JerrySharrett said:
10-4 Hogg!! Put the hammer on the double nickel.

Looks like you need Speedy to come back......I know he really misses you hanging around in his way.
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Why don't you call him and ask him yourself? The answer would send you back to the pantry for more fiber and to the store for more pull-ups;)
 
Our sport is said to be safer than ping-pong, in that we have fewer
fatal accidents. Who knows. At any rate we have had few injuries
related to the discharge of a gun, in registered matches.
Nearly all of us have kept in tune to the never ending assaults
on our second ammendmant rights. For an example, has a 7 round
magazine instead of 10 saved a life, I would doubt it. And if
threaded muzzles were still a no-no, where would we put our tuners.
although well intended, this rule offer more to IBS
in the form of recourse than it does in safety. The rule could
be modified to say an assembled bolt is not allowed in a gun.
It allows the same recourse to the host club or Organization.
Clubs all so have the option of having you sign a waiver, releasing
them of responsibility.
Chasing down the designated person, for the purpose of
having them witness your disassembled bolt being put in your
gun can be a nightmare. You may not know what this person
looks like, he may be at lunch or in the boys room.
Cleaning rods and brass rods have accounted for more
accidents , but we have no rule saying you can't have one in your
gun on the firing line.
changing the rule to read , The bolt must be disassembled
is not that difficult
 
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