IBS bolts-out rule

[LHSmith]

Stick to the facts

Not allowing a STRIPPED bolt in an action to check setup is a dumb rule. Adding more dumb rules just cause most folks to ignore other rules as well. Some of the rules that may be important to safety.

The FACT is you can still check bump/ OAL or whatever with a stripped bolt...provided you do so in the presence of a referee...in a designated "safe" area .

In my 6 years on shooting IBS score I have witnessed numerous incidents that raises concerns about introducing my grandson into this sport.
I don't think the safety rules go far enough......I have questioned BR gun handling practices in past posts... but at this time I will not expound on them.

Secondly, I believe you fail to realize how many shoots the Northeast score shooters attend annually....including Greg and Mr. Wass (part of the Maniac contingent.........i.e. from Maine)

 

[Hal D.]

It's pretty easy for someone who preloads their ammo at home to claim that this rule is a good one. Many score shooters do just that (me included). So I would like a show of hands of all the shooters who have posted here saying we need this rule, who have never used their chamber to check shoulder bump in the confines of their home???

What in the hell in dangerous about using a stripped bolt to chamber an unprimed and unloaded case???

 

[JerrySharrett]

Why don't you call him and ask him yourself? The answer would send you back to the pantry for more fiber and to the store for more pull-ups

Ya know, Hogg and I go back a long ways, don't we Hogg?

Hogg has always come across as a Wannabe. In grade school, I suspect he was a Wannabe bully, then someone 2 grades down would bust his bubble. In high school, same thing, bull, pop, gone.

Now Hogg is a wannabe benchrest shooter. Great. Be nice to have him. Of course he will have to give his legal name for the match logistics.

 

[Dave Coots]

Let me see

Wasn't the dude that had his gun discharge into the air walking around with the bolt in his gun already breaking a rule? So, in the name of saftey, several more rules were made to rectify this. Who can say this guy won't do the same thing again? The new rules must be working, as no one has been shot since the rules change.

It doesn't make any difference as to how many rules you make, if there is a problem, a lawyer will find a way to make someone bleed.

Saftey First
Dave

 

[Chuck Bogardus]

The only injury, other than scope eye or pulled muscles, that I've been around for in the benchrest world was the result of someone shooting with a bore obstruction (a cleaning rod section).

It was fatal.

I'd -really- like to see a "check your bore" thing inserted in the liturgy prior to the "insert your bolt" or "commence fire" or whatever. It takes a split second to glance down, and see daylight, and makes sure you haven't left a cleaning patch, a rod jag, or something worse in the bore. I've known shooters who have left a patch stuffed in the muzzle in rainy or dusty conditions, and in at least one instance, if I am recalling correctly, the Man with the Hat had his first sighter impact on his record (Nationals at Midland a few years ago) due to a forgotten "dust control" device.

Suggestion: One of you nice machinist types needs to machine a nice bright red dealie that looks like the bolt shroud stuff, and that will stick out a couple of inches. With that it'd be EASY to see when an inert bolt is being used to check bump. Sound like a decent compromise?

 

[Bob Dodd]

Not at me

I don't want anyone at anytime with a stripped bolt or not pointing a rifle in my direction. I know for a fact that people have stripped bolts and put live rounds in their guns in the loading area. If you give just a little on the no bolt in gun someone could die. If you don't understand that you are the idiot.
Bob Dodd

 

[michaelb]

Bogie,

You must have been ex-military, checking the bore is standard practice in the military. Great advice bogie!!

Mike

 

[Boss Hoss 540]

Ya know, Hogg and I go back a long ways, don't we Hogg?

Hogg has always come across as a Wannabe. In grade school, I suspect he was a Wannabe bully, then someone 2 grades down would bust his bubble. In high school, same thing, bull, pop, gone.

Now Hogg is a wannabe benchrest shooter. Great. Be nice to have him. Of course he will have to give his legal name for the match logistics.

Jerry----many are better than I am in fact probably most. I know you have probably have more IBS points than I do and have won more State Championships (1k) than I have (only have 1) so what is the point? My name is on the list---why don't you call Speedy and find out we just finished discussing you btw..

In the meantime, take a nap and have your afternoon bottle of Ensure! You know if you miss your happy nappy again the irritable bowel syndrome will flare up and that money you have been saving for the "tuner" you have been wanting will go for pull-up's again!

Beat on me all you want! I like it even if you are somewhat challenged in the cognitive department. Might give some thought to go ahead and practice with your "bolt out" so you don't forget when you "soil yourself" on the line and people start to snicker and the pass out from the stench --- your incontinence gets out of control when that happens especially after eating fried food. Just remember to Duct Tape the bottoms of the pull ups so we don’t fill up the boots again! Remember that one--I am still laughing when you left "squishing" all the way back to your table then asked people to help pull your boots off and you got livid because no one would!!

 

[tim]

Ya know, Hogg and I go back a long ways, don't we Hogg?

Hogg has always come across as a Wannabe. In grade school, I suspect he was a Wannabe bully, then someone 2 grades down would bust his bubble. In high school, same thing, bull, pop, gone.

Now Hogg is a wannabe benchrest shooter. Great. Be nice to have him. Of course he will have to give his legal name for the match logistics.

You know at some point they might even pass the STF up rule. I think we're there, how many times you gonna kick this dead horse.

 

[greg]

Hal...

It's pretty easy for someone who preloads their ammo at home to claim that this rule is a good one. Many score shooters do just that (me included). So I would like a show of hands of all the shooters who have posted here saying we need this rule, who have never used their chamber to check shoulder bump in the confines of their home???

What in the hell in dangerous about using a stripped bolt to chamber an unprimed and unloaded case???

imo, a bolts out rule is just that...a bolts out rule. If I'm 50 feet away and see you inserting a bolt how do I know you've stripped it? You know human activity creep....give an inch and take a foot. I think its a good rule, and one we all can live with. I've had to ask to do the stripped bolt insertion twice, and found no trouble with the current rule. Regarding you home use question, home isn't at a sanctioned match. Not sure what you are going with the Q? --Greg

 

[Boss Hoss 540]

Thank You Tim! Am scouring the internet for some Alden Shell Cordovan in the Whiskey or Revello color (Wing Tips or Cap Toe built on the Aberdeen Last Only in 10D) and Jerry is detracting from my mission.

 

[bryan]

My personal opinion.........

I shoot all the matches at the Whittington Center, where there are 4 rows of tables in the building. Rifles face south or north........doesn't matter........You are ALWAYS in line with the muzzle of someone's rifle. Leaving the firing line, you can see shooters with the stock on the shoulder and the muzzle being held by the hand in a horizontal plane. Am I worried? Not at all. When I'm at the sight in range with the general population, I keep a close eye on everyone. I've seen shooters set a rifle sideways on the bench............loaded! Jeeeezzzzeee!
Safety is formost in a competitors mind, and I think the bolts out rule is just fine, but a stripped bolt, with your neighbors knowledge, is not a safety issue.
Bryan

 

[JerrySharrett]

Safety is formost in a competitors mind, and I think the bolts out rule is just fine, but a stripped bolt, with your neighbors knowledge, is not a safety issue.
Bryan

A rule change to allow a stripped bolt along with a local announcement that the bolt is stripped would be the way to go.

This bolts out and hold them up is not bad either as long as the range officer doesn't get over zealous. At the 2007 IBS Nats at St Louis a friend of mine was on the bench directly in front of the officers stand. Knowing he was in full view, my friend, while resting his elbow on the bench held up his bolt. He got yelled at for not holding the bolt at arms length!!

Common sense and caution still must be used..

 

[Boss Hoss 540]

I shoot all the matches at the Whittington Center, where there are 4 rows of tables in the building. Rifles face south or north........doesn't matter........You are ALWAYS in line with the muzzle of someone's rifle. Leaving the firing line, you can see shooters with the stock on the shoulder and the muzzle being held by the hand in a horizontal plane. Am I worried? Not at all. When I'm at the sight in range with the general population, I keep a close eye on everyone. I've seen shooters set a rifle sideways on the bench............loaded! Jeeeezzzzeee!
Safety is formost in a competitors mind, and I think the bolts out rule is just fine, but a stripped bolt, with your neighbors knowledge, is not a safety issue.
Bryan

Bryan---how about me sitting 3 benches over??? Never happen the rule will remain as it is. Can't be too safe and if someone gets their shorts in a wad over it then they will just have to learn to deal with it or stay home. The remain seated and no yelling at your buddy down the line during the relay is a good one as well----I am a “chaser” and sometimes will be one of the last to finish shooting. Would rather watch condition than be distracted.

 

[Jefferson]

at big matches

like the SS (well run and nice folks) there are a lot of silly prople who come off their bench and proceed from bench 58 to banch 9 down the cement runway pushing prople out of the way for 50 benches even if it is not raining as they are too stupid to go out front or the backside away from the cement with all of their equipment. AND THAT IS JUST WITH THEIR EQUIPMENT IN TOW and we expect them to place a intact bolt in a gun pointed at my back without me worrying, not a chance. If they let me know I still look to see the loaded round has no primer in it but still worry,

Jefferson

 

[goodgrouper]

I shoot all the matches at the Whittington Center, where there are 4 rows of tables in the building. Rifles face south or north........doesn't matter........You are ALWAYS in line with the muzzle of someone's rifle. Leaving the firing line, you can see shooters with the stock on the shoulder and the muzzle being held by the hand in a horizontal plane. Am I worried? Not at all. When I'm at the sight in range with the general population, I keep a close eye on everyone. I've seen shooters set a rifle sideways on the bench............loaded! Jeeeezzzzeee!
Safety is formost in a competitors mind, and I think the bolts out rule is just fine, but a stripped bolt, with your neighbors knowledge, is not a safety issue.
Bryan

I agree 99% with Bryan.

I have been fortunate (or maybe unfortunate) enough to have been involved to some degree just about every shooting discipline known to man and I feel there is not a safer sport than benchrest--long or short range.

Why just last week, I attended an introductory highpower match and a regional coyboy action match and I was literally amazed at some of the stuff those disciplines subject the participants to. Shooting subsonic lead ammo at plates 10 feet away while running and loading another gun or two scared the fun right out of me. Then handing a semi-auto to someone who has never shot before and make them cycle the action for single slow fire while in the prone position and the muzzles being pointed in the dirt while doing so made me run for cover.
Yet, I can attend a benchrest match with over 100 other guys and muzzles being pointed everywhere but never had a second thought about it. Why? Because of the bolt out rule.

To a layperson, seeing 100 plus guns all pointing at someone in the loading area probably looks bad but it's completely safe--just so long as the bolt is out of the rifle--stripped or not. This rule is so key that debating it seems as crazy as trying to quickdraw while you're on a mechanical bull.

If you need to check your brass, why not do it on the firing line on practice day or go way out in the parking lot by yourself with your muzzle in the air. As someone mentioned earlier, you cannot tell if a bolt is stripped from 20 feet away and even though it is technically safe, it isn't very good etiquette. Some new shooter sees an old pro stick his (stripped) bolt in his gun and then he thinks it's ok to do so long as you're in the load area and it's only a matter of time until someone dies. Just like Jerry said, it's easier to follow the rules than have to tell somebody's loved one why they are dead.

If we can't follow this simple rule, we are running risks that aren't worth someone dying over. And if the bolt is stripped and it's not pointing in anyone's direction, it can still be unnerving. Just my two bits.

 

[Chuck Bogardus]

Benchrest matches would give a LOT of folks the willies - For instance, at the local conservation range, the rule is "do not handle firearms while anyone is downrange." People used to shooting under those circumstances tend to freak out when they see a line of 60 shooters, all happily beating on rests and seemingly aiming at the folks from the golfcarts who are scurrying around the target stands. And trying to tell them that Ian's been doing it for over a decade doesn't wipe the shock off their faces...

I wouldn't insert a round containing powder/primer under a dead bolt - and I'd -really- appreciate it if other folks avoid doing so... and I try to make sure the muzzle is pointed in a safe direction when I'm playing "find the perfect feel" for the bump. Hmm... Maybe I oughta build a nice little addition to my table to tilt the barrel down even further.

I do think that a "dead bolt" indicator would be interesting to try out - Make the thing about 2" or so long, and hot orange or red...

 

[goodgrouper]

Benchrest matches would give a LOT of folks the willies - For instance, at the local conservation range, the rule is "do not handle firearms while anyone is downrange." People used to shooting under those circumstances tend to freak out when they see a line of 60 shooters, all happily beating on rests and seemingly aiming at the folks from the golfcarts who are scurrying around the target stands. And trying to tell them that Ian's been doing it for over a decade doesn't wipe the shock off their faces...

That very thing happened last year at a local match. It was being held at a range that the Division of Wildlife Resources runs. One of the range officers got to work about the time we were starting our HV100 and saw a bunch of guys (the new relay) setting their guns down on their rests and looking down range through their scopes while a couple kids (the target crew)were collecting some targets. He came running into the office and screamed at the other range officers for neglecting the safety rules. I heard one of them say, "that is a benchrest match going on out there and that's just the way they do things". "Their bolts are removed". The other guys mumbled something under his breath like, "that's the dumbest excuse I've ever heard".

But our rifles are basically just expensive paperweights without the bolts and thus the rule was implemented for the safety of the shooters not the concern of onlookers.

 

[Pete Wass]

For a benchrest Shooter

It is necessary to handle one's rifle during a cold line to properly position one's flags. I got scolded for trying to do that recently at a public range. Something is missing in the translation I guess.

I can see that at ranges where folks who show up to burn up ammo a range officer may not want folks handeling rifles that bolts aren't easily removed from. Ranges that provide a place for the general public to shoot are, by necessity, a different animal. One for the ranges I shot at in Florida was heavily baffled and the baffles were shot up with several shots which looked like a sub-machinegun had done it inadvertently but there were other shots in them as well. The baffles were HIGH; no excuse for ever hitting one of them.

Clubs need to decide who they want to cater to and what they must do to accomodate them. What would be nice is if BR shooters could somehow be accomodated and able to proceed the way they are accustomed to being able to proceed. If it took some sort of qualification that would be fine but the answer isn't to be mixed up with the Ammo Burners.

It amazes me that people shoot and keep trying to zero their rifles without using flags. I use to do it before I knew about flags and was constantly twisting knobs. Perhaps the idea of being able to see the wind should be written about by some fo the gun writers in the Glossy magazines. Perhaps the every day person could learn to make their shooting more enjoyable.

 

[Hal D.]

Everyone has been talking about pointing your rifle in a safe direction while you have a referree checking you checking your case length.
What is a "safe direction"? NRA will tell you the only safe place on a range is on the firing line and pointing into the NRA approved back stop or berm. Is up in the air safe? No, you don't know where the bullet will come down. Is into the ground safe? No. You can't tell where the bullet will ricochet or send foreign matter flying. So, tell me what is a safe direction?

Heck Francis, is downrange a safe direction???Ask Bill Sargent...The truth of the matter is that when novice shooters are left to their own devices, things can happen. That's where the real problem lies. Too many new shooters are brought in and not given the proper supervision and training. Does anyone think that the shooter at the Bud Pryor was aware that he had a live round with the bolt closed on it perched on his shoulder? I'm pretty sure that he was as surprised as anyone when the gun discharged. How about when the shooter that speaks little english started shooting before the commence fire was given? I'm all for new shooters, but when bringing a complete novice to a match, it is the duty of the host to keep their eye on them. That means at all times when the shooter is handling the rifle. I like the rule about showing your bolt at the end of the relay, but to not let shooters use a stripped bolt to check headspace is silly in my estimation. If there had been proper supervision of both the aforementioned shooters, we wouldn't be having this discussion. With the bolts out rule we have now, both instances could still easily happen.