Has anyone hunted wolves?

[C. E. Nagel]

I find the conversion somewhat interesting

For those who are interested in some facts may I make a suggestion on some reading material. (1) Article/ Dr. Valerius Geist, Where wolves Have Become Common. (2) Article/ Dr. Valerius Geist, When Do Wolves Become Dangerous To Humans. These are easy reading. The first article is 3 pages long & the 2nd article is 5 pages long. If you want a little more infomation I suggest reading The Wolves of Alaska by Jim Rearden and then if you feel up to it I would also suggest reading Wolves of Russa by Will Grave. I hope some of you will find the time to read the above mention.
...........Respectfully.............Chan.

 

[vicvanb]

For those who are interested in some facts may I make a suggestion on some reading material. (1) Article/ Dr. Valerius Geist, Where wolves Have Become Common. (2) Article/ Dr. Valerius Geist, When Do Wolves Become Dangerous To Humans. These are easy reading. The first article is 3 pages long & the 2nd article is 5 pages long. If you want a little more infomation I suggest reading The Wolves of Alaska by Jim Rearden and then if you feel up to it I would also suggest reading Wolves of Russa by Will Grave. I hope some of you will find the time to read the above mention.
...........Respectfully.............Chan.

All of these recommended readings are "anti-wolf" and fan the flames of those who dislike wolves and want the North Country rid of them.

There are plenty of "pro-wolf" readings that emphasize the positive things about wolves. You need to balance the scales that tend to tip too far one way or the other whenever wolves are mentioned.

As shooters and hunters we need to remember a few basic things--wolves don't eliminate big game animals and the chances of being attacked by a wild wolf are so small you can forget about it.

If you want to worry, worry that thousands of big game animals starve during severe winters, and thousands others are crowded out of winter ranges by housing developments that have mushroomed in recent years. I keep seeing ads for property in the western states--ranches that were bought up and subdivided for building lots. No wolves there and no more elk and mule deer either.

 

[Marc]

Vicvanb, Sounds like you have never read Valerius Geist. Nobody is saying they want to rid the world of wolves. Get that out of your head. We love wolves as much as we love elk, grizzlies, mule deer, cougars, moose, hummingbirds, coyotes, seagulls, ducks and most any other animal, bird, reptile, bug, etc., etc. They are all part of our world and very important to quality of our life, at least mine. Wolves are necessary and a sign of a healthy ecoysystem wherever they naturally occur. Writers like Valerius Geist, one of the most informed environmentalists and biologists in North America consider them to be paramount to a healthy ecosystem. I don't want to live in a world without wolves, I've had opportunity to shoot quite a few and never have ..BUT, sometimes these animals need to be managed for any number of reasons, the wolf should not be exempt from that list if it is necessary. We haven't killed many wolves in Canada for the last half century, prefering to give them to places like Idaho or restock areas here that they have historically been eradicated. We're running out of places to put our excess wolves. Today our wolf to ungulate ratio is out of control in some places so we shoot a few, they are not threatened or endangered here, and we have absolutely no intention of killing them off. Starving wolves cause trouble which is not good. Perhaps you would like a few for your neighborhood, which at one time surely was wildlife habitat until you and your neighbors ancestors came along. Maybe you could petition to remove the subdivision, town, city, or farm wherever you live and rehab the environment, it could once again be good for wolves or whatever critters that historically lived there. You and I are as much to blame for wildlifes fight to exist as anyone else, some critter had to give up their space because of your existence.

Should we let the wolves in an area here kill off the last caribou, then let the wolves starve too. Maybe we should knock the wolf population back to a healthy level and also let the caribou thrive so the wolves won't starve and have to come to town to eat cattle, dogs of porches or eventually children playing in the sandbox in the backyard then ultimately be killed anyway........hmmmm

 

[alinwa]

Vicvanb, Sounds like you have never read Valerius Geist. Nobody is saying they want to rid the world of wolves. Get that out of your head. We love wolves as much as we love elk, grizzlies, mule deer, cougars, moose, hummingbirds, coyotes, seagulls, ducks and most any other animal, bird, reptile, bug, etc., etc. They are all part of our world and very important to quality of our life, at least mine. Wolves are necessary and a sign of a healthy ecoysystem wherever they naturally occur. Writers like Valerius Geist, one of the most informed environmentalists and biologists in North America consider them to be paramount to a healthy ecosystem. I don't want to live in a world without wolves, I've had opportunity to shoot quite a few and never have ..BUT, sometimes these animals need to be managed for any number of reasons, the wolf should not be exempt from that list if it is necessary. We haven't killed many wolves in Canada for the last half century, prefering to give them to places like Idaho or restock areas here that they have historically been eradicated. We're running out of places to put our excess wolves. Today our wolf to ungulate ratio is out of control in some places so we shoot a few, they are not threatened or endangered here, and we have absolutely no intention of killing them off. Starving wolves cause trouble which is not good. Perhaps you would like a few for your neighborhood, which at one time surely was wildlife habitat until you and your neighbors ancestors came along. Maybe you could petition to remove the subdivision, town, city, or farm wherever you live and rehab the environment, it could once again be good for wolves or whatever critters that historically lived there. You and I are as much to blame for wildlifes fight to exist as anyone else, some critter had to give up their space because of your existence.

Should we let the wolves in an area here kill off the last caribou, then let the wolves starve too. Maybe we should knock the wolf population back to a healthy level and also let the caribou thrive so the wolves won't starve and have to come to town to eat cattle, dogs of porches or eventually children playing in the sandbox in the backyard then ultimately be killed anyway........hmmmm

Good post!



al

 

[Ackman]

Funny about the wolf thing. So many of the people who're in love with them are clueless urbanites who won't have to live with them. That photo was on another site with information it was shot in Sun Valley, Idaho....which turned out not to be true. But around Sun Valley there are in fact lots of wolves. They've seriously damaged the elk herds and people aren't liking that. Even the tree hugger/wolf lovers will be changing their mind when dogs and cats start disappearing, then reappearing as wolf scat. That may be happening right now. Wolves really are a problem. Local ranchers are quietly protecting their livestock. One collar from a wolf was tracked and found on the neck of a sheep. Hmmm. A friend lives up there, a farmer....tells me there's a season on them now and that they can be hunted. Good. Wolves are a couple hours south in Burley. If they're in Burley, they're also in the mountains just below. And just the other side of those mountains are Nevada and Utah. Won't be long.

 

[vicvanb]

Wait!!!

Should we let the wolves in an area here kill off the last caribou, then let the wolves starve too.

You raise several interesting points, then fall back on the old mythology about wolves killing the last caribou. If wolves were able to wipe them out it would have happened thousands of years ago. The false "facts" about wolves killing off all the game lead to the kind of control programs that eliminated wolves from 98% of their original range in the USA.

And yes, I have read Geist. Have you read Murie???

 

[vicvanb]

Wrong!

We haven't killed many wolves in Canada for the last half century, prefering to give them to places like Idaho or restock areas here that they have historically been eradicated.

This is just simply untrue. All of the Canadian Provinces that have wolves have hunting and trapping seasons and many wolves are harvested each year. Plus, there have been large-scale aerial shooting wolf control programs in British Columbia and the Yukon. Have you forgotten the helicopter shooting of wolves in the Muskwa/Stikine country not too long ago? Hundreds of wolves shot over several years--Mr Elliot was the Province biologist who ran the program. There was also evidence of wolf poisoning there by the locals.

 

[Marc]

Large scale aerial shootings? There is none, nor was there any large scale aerial wolf hunt as was implyed by pleeding media and fear mongering environmental activists over the years. Yes in a few isolated areas not developed and unaccessable any other way, hundreds of wolves were killed by air. This was done to bring their numbers in line with a sustainable prey base in a few areas, there wasn't hundreds of airplanes flying for months shooting every wolf they could find, a couple of airplanes sent out to a few targeted and researched areas to make a few hundred strategic wolf kills over a few days does not constitute a large scale wolf eradication program as the media would have you believe. It is still done on rare occasions. Wolves are still trapped, hunted and killed but in numbers that are so low as to have no effect on their increasing overall population. A few hundred wolves a year is an underharvest and sustainable. Poision is illegal and hasn't been used for years. The wolf population is increasing far beyond the rate of attrition.

In Canada we have vast areas of wilderness. Your attempting to view us up here as you view the lower 48 where there is little wilderness left, only a few isolated pockets remain that for all intensive purposes could be classed as real wilderness where there is suitable wolf habitat. Once those areas reach a saturated wolf population you will begin to have overflow wolf problems(which your already beginning to see) unfortunately wolves should be kept confined to those few suitable areas.

The caribou I mention are isolated herds that are very low in numbers due to development, industry and historical overharvest, harvest was outlawed decades ago and industry/development has been halted to protect the remnants of these herds some of which number far less than a hundred in some of these bands of animals. The wolf is the only factor in these herds decline at the present, taking some wolves out of these areas is necessary to save caribou if it's not to late already.

Your relating things that happened decades ago that media presented as a large scale wolf cull. Times have changed these days, the mindset of generations ago that wanted to eradicate wolves does not exist though the media carries on as if it was still happening and portraying that the wolf is on the verge of extinction claiming there are so few left. That is simply not the case.

In Ontaro's Algonquin Park a smaller subspecies of wolf known as the Red Wolf is endangered. Yet they haven't been hunted, trapped, poisoned since it became a park in the early 1900's, and had healthy populations of wolves during the days they were trapped and hunted They have been studied in depth for decades it has been proven they are simply cross breeding with coyotes and looseing their genetic strain, they barely resemble wolves, they look like long legged coyotes and most are barely distinguishable from the coyotes who moved into the area a half century ago. Those wolves are doomed to extinction by mother nature. The activists are still implying they are being persecuted by hunters, trappers and development (theres no development) and are begging money to study and protect them from those hunters and trappers and the evil government managers who still allow this to happen...cep't it isn't happening. Somebody is lining their pockets with this cowcrap as people are up in arms over something that isn't even happening. They send their money to those television wildlife evangelists who plead for donations to save them.

 

[Roger T]

Wolves

do not kill wantonly. They kill to survive. If there is sufficient food supply Wild or Domestic the packs will prosper. Mans problem is that he keeps pushing the WILD areas into smaller and smaller spaces then complains about critters damageing this or killing that. People need to get a grip on themselves. If you move/live where there is an abundance of ANY wildlife try to live with it not against it. AND I"M NOT A TREE HUGGER I enjoy the outdoors hunting,fishing camping. My Uncle (by marraige) and 2 of his brothers raised beef cattle from the 40's to the early 70's. Every year they would truck them up to land they owned in the NW part of the state for calveing/summer grazeing.Wolves were an issue with predation but he always said that it's the way of nature. He said when the deer population was down they lost more cattle . I never heard him say that he ever shot a wolf for takeing a calf although they did have a hangmans noose up in the bunkhouse for the 2 legged thieves.

 

[vicvanb]

Large scale aerial shootings? There is none, nor was there any large scale aerial wolf hunt as was implyed by pleeding media and fear mongering environmental activists over the years. Yes in a few isolated areas not developed and unaccessable any other way, hundreds of wolves were killed by air. This was done to bring their numbers in line with a sustainable prey base in a few areas, there wasn't hundreds of airplanes flying for months shooting every wolf they could find, a couple of airplanes sent out to a few targeted and researched areas to make a few hundred strategic wolf kills over a few days does not constitute a large scale wolf eradication program as the media would have you believe. It is still done on rare occasions. Wolves are still trapped, hunted and killed but in numbers that are so low as to have no effect on their increasing overall population. A few hundred wolves a year is an underharvest and sustainable. Poision is illegal and hasn't been used for years. The wolf population is increasing far beyond the rate of attrition.

In Canada we have vast areas of wilderness. Your attempting to view us up here as you view the lower 48 where there is little wilderness left, only a few isolated pockets remain that for all intensive purposes could be classed as real wilderness where there is suitable wolf habitat. Once those areas reach a saturated wolf population you will begin to have overflow wolf problems(which your already beginning to see) unfortunately wolves should be kept confined to those few suitable areas.

The caribou I mention are isolated herds that are very low in numbers due to development, industry and historical overharvest, harvest was outlawed decades ago and industry/development has been halted to protect the remnants of these herds some of which number far less than a hundred in some of these bands of animals. The wolf is the only factor in these herds decline at the present, taking some wolves out of these areas is necessary to save caribou if it's not to late already.

Your relating things that happened decades ago that media presented as a large scale wolf cull. Times have changed these days, the mindset of generations ago that wanted to eradicate wolves does not exist though the media carries on as if it was still happening and portraying that the wolf is on the verge of extinction claiming there are so few left. That is simply not the case.

In Ontaro's Algonquin Park a smaller subspecies of wolf known as the Red Wolf is endangered. Yet they haven't been hunted, trapped, poisoned since it became a park in the early 1900's, and had healthy populations of wolves during the days they were trapped and hunted They have been studied in depth for decades it has been proven they are simply cross breeding with coyotes and looseing their genetic strain, they barely resemble wolves, they look like long legged coyotes and most are barely distinguishable from the coyotes who moved into the area a half century ago. Those wolves are doomed to extinction by mother nature. The activists are still implying they are being persecuted by hunters, trappers and development (theres no development) and are begging money to study and protect them from those hunters and trappers and the evil government managers who still allow this to happen...cep't it isn't happening. Somebody is lining their pockets with this cowcrap as people are up in arms over something that isn't even happening. They send their money to those television wildlife evangelists who plead for donations to save them.

Your post is as emotional and non-factual as the dreaded "environmentalists" claims on the other side of the issue.

First you claim there haven't been many wolves killed in Canada in the past 50 years, and there have been no large scale control programs, but then you admit that hundeds were shot from the air in remote areas. Well, hundeds of wolves constitute large-scale control, and wolves by nature live in remote areas. Duh!

Your mis-representation of the Algonquin Park, Ontario situation is false. Those are eastern timber wolves and they are not being diluted by coyote inter-breeding.

 

[vicvanb]

do not kill wantonly. They kill to survive. If there is sufficient food supply Wild or Domestic the packs will prosper. Mans problem is that he keeps pushing the WILD areas into smaller and smaller spaces then complains about critters damageing this or killing that. People need to get a grip on themselves. If you move/live where there is an abundance of ANY wildlife try to live with it not against it. AND I"M NOT A TREE HUGGER I enjoy the outdoors hunting,fishing camping. My Uncle (by marraige) and 2 of his brothers raised beef cattle from the 40's to the early 70's. Every year they would truck them up to land they owned in the NW part of the state for calveing/summer grazeing.Wolves were an issue with predation but he always said that it's the way of nature. He said when the deer population was down they lost more cattle . I never heard him say that he ever shot a wolf for takeing a calf although they did have a hangmans noose up in the bunkhouse for the 2 legged thieves.

Good post! Your uncle was wise. These days, ranchers in the western US are paid for losses proven to be caused by wolves. If predation problems persist, the feds remove (kill) the wolves. No ranchers should suffer extensive losses under the present system.

 

[brian roberts]

Hey Marc, thanks for the..........

great posts!! Good info on a touchy subject, well presented.

As I have posted before, there are areas that are, and have been, suffering from the coyote "migrations" (Re: "Transplantations") that are decimating the Pheasant populatons in Pennsylvania, and starting to have repercussions South and Eastward. Out in Kalifonication, Widdle Fifi the poodle, and Widdle Poo-Poo(under the couch!!)the cat(I can never remember the finicky cat's name!! Oh, yeah, Morris, I remember. If I'da had Morris for 2-3wks, that cat'd be eating lettuce, broccoli, and radishes when she got 'im back!!) are starting to be found in the coyote's market basket. NOW, the Hollywoodites want "Something Done" about it.....but only when it hits THEM in the heart, or the pocketbook(Aren't those two spots one and the same for some folks??)

 

[Marc]

do not kill wantonly. They kill to survive. .

Obviously they kill to survive, they have to, but to say thats all they do is not always true. It has been documented time and time again that they will occasionally kill more than they need. Sometimes large packs will wipe out a whole herd of deer yarded up in deep snow, they seem to get into a killing frenzy in certain situations, seemingly killing and abandoning carcasses for the shear joy of it. Wolves will kill the sick and injured, but generally they kill healthy animals, if they had to depend on infirm animals and not kill any healthy animals they wouldn't get many meals. Interesting that studies have shown that they will kill a sick animal out of a herd and also kill healthy animals from the same herd and consume the healthy animal and ignore the sick one. The are no more interested in eating a sick animal if they have a choice than we would consider eating a sick beef cow if we had the option to eat a healthy one..

 

[Ackman]

First you claim there haven't been many wolves killed in Canada in the past 50 years, and there have been no large scale control programs, but then you admit that hundeds were shot from the air in remote areas. Well, hundeds of wolves constitute large-scale control, and wolves by nature live in remote areas. Duh!

No, a few hundred wolves is NOT large scale.
Take another predator, the coyote. Every few years the sheep ranchers send a plane into a valley not far from here.....it's nothing for them to get a couple hundred coyotes. In one Idaho valley where I shoot, they'll kill a couple hundred coyotes in just 2 days from the air. Those are just a couple valleys...area-wise it's nothing. Canada is huge and has a whole ton of wolves.....a few hundred wolves is almost nothing in the whole scheme of things. You have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[Marc]

Your post is as emotional and non-factual as the dreaded "environmentalists" claims on the other side of the issue.

First you claim there haven't been many wolves killed in Canada in the past 50 years, and there have been no large scale control programs, but then you admit that hundeds were shot from the air in remote areas. Well, hundeds of wolves constitute large-scale control, and wolves by nature live in remote areas. Duh!

Your mis-representation of the Algonquin Park, Ontario situation is false. Those are eastern timber wolves and they are not being diluted by coyote inter-breeding.

Yes, there are timber wolves in Algonquin park, I was not refering to Timber or Grey wolves. I was referring to The Red Wolf, apparently that escapes you.. Happy to say those eastern red wolves are now also on the increase.

Killing hundreds of wolves by airplanes in Canada is not a large scale culling, it's not even the tip of the icerberg. You don't seem to realize the numbers we have here in some of these areas. A few hundred wolves out of a population of 70,000+ is not large scale. You cannot seem to fathom the size of the area and densities of wolves we have in some of those areas.

 

[Marc]

Vicvanb. Heres a link information of the RED WOLF or eastern wolf in Algonquin Park. Pay attention and read the whole thing.

http://www.algonquinpark.on.ca/nature/mammals/whatr_wolves.html

 

[brian roberts]

"No ranchers should suffer extensive losses........"

Yeah......RIIIGHT, as Cosby used to say. "In your news today...Ranchers in the Western states have come to Washington today to testify before Congress about the wolf predations across eight states, stating that financial losses are easily in the tens of millions of dollars, and reminding Congress of the goverment's commitment to reimburse them for these losses. "The government told us ten years ago, we'd be reimbursed for these predations when they introduced these wolves, an' we ain't seen a dime yet", said Clint Wycoff, of the Western Stockman's Association."
In other news, The White House said today there was no money to assist California with funds for aerial tanker fire-fighting initiatives during the fire season this year, as more than 1600 homes have burned in the last two months. Washington says that money is being used to bring America out from the "recession" that was caused by the Wall Street Meltdown, some eight years ago, and, that 1400 schools will have to be closed nation-wide as a result of Teacher's union strikes for more pay." "Unfortunately, there just isn't any extra money in the budget this year", said the White House Press Secretary. "Now, to the stock market report, Goldman Sachs reported their year-end bonuses were at record highs this year." "In other news, the goverment critisized the stock market executives for not hastening their payments of the bail-out loans from seven years........." Yep, The "Great Father That Lives Many Moons From Here", is going to "take care of it" "will look into it" "has to study that". REMEMBER THIS, FOLKS, these are the same guys who can't find those "Rogue Elements" in the Cocaine Import Agency(Y' mean th'uh CIA??) who keep flyin' in TONS of crack an' other crap so the "War On Drugs" fighters can remain employed.....hel-LO, does anyone see that MAN BEHIND THE CURTAIN???

 

[vicvanb]

Apples and Oranges, Ackman!

No, a few hundred wolves is NOT large scale.
Take another predator, the coyote. Every few years the sheep ranchers send a plane into a valley not far from here.....it's nothing for them to get a couple hundred coyotes. In one Idaho valley where I shoot, they'll kill a couple hundred coyotes in just 2 days from the air. Those are just a couple valleys...area-wise it's nothing. Canada is huge and has a whole ton of wolves.....a few hundred wolves is almost nothing in the whole scheme of things. You have no idea what you're talking about.

We're talking about wolves, not coyotes. How many coyotes they kill in Idaho is totally not relevant. Why not tell me how many mice are trapped there too?? It has nothing to do with the scale of wolf control in Canada.

The aerial shooting programs in British Columbia and the Yukon that I referred to covered thousands of square miles and several hundred wolves were killed. If that's not large scale I don't know what is.

I was responding to his claim that not many wolves have been taken in Canada in the last 50 years. That is an untrue claim.

 

[Ax238]

do not kill wantonly. They kill to survive.

This website opened my mind, I hope it does yours too:
www.saveelk.com/wolf_002.htm

 

[alinwa]

This website opened my mind, I hope it does yours too:
www.saveelk.com/wolf_002.htm

Awwww, those are all fake Ax

Animals in the wild are NEVER wanton, they're pure and clean, most even thank the Great Spirit for their bounty. They never kill more than they absolutely need........ ( )

These photos make me rethink my initial assessment of the first pic as photoshopped. Foreshortened, maybe even low-angle forced a little, but believable.

al